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fredjeang

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« on: April 26, 2010, 07:26:38 am »

Hi everybody,

Michael lastest pics make me thing about this:

Today I witnessed an unusual dispute in the street of Madrid while I was going to a work meeting.
A tourist with a big 200mm tele shoot from distance an old woman.
The Lady just jumped at him, insulting him like crazy and a group of people started to surrowding the poor guy saying that this was a violation to individual rights etc...in a very agressive way.
The guy erased the pic, (in reality the lady came in its field by accident while he was shooting a building). I tryed to defend him and calm down the others but it was impossible. Finally the tourist just moved a little scared and everything went back to normality. Some people did even want to bring the guy to the police. These extreme reactions and some recent stories that I've heard in Madrid make me wonder about the legal parts of street photography.

Street photography has never been my style, but for some reasons in the recent months I've been pushed by instinct to explore this kind of photography. The scene I just described makes me wonder about how far can we go and what are our rights and the other's.
How can this great Magnum photographer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRBARi09je8 not have problems? Is it because it's New-York?

I'd like to know if  the ones who practise "street" regularly are asking these people rights for publishing?
Are they aware the've been photographed? What are your ethics rules?
What can we do and what can't we do?

Have you ever experienced such a situation where you had hostility problems with some people you photographed?

Does Michael publish pics of people here without their consent?

etc...I think you got the idea.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 08:05:23 am by fredjeang »
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Rob C

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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2010, 10:40:27 am »

Fred

A topic devoted to 'Street' was started over on Is It Art, I think, so perhaps it may help if we can keep the topic under one roof, so to speak?

Anyway, I think that the Spanish legal position is that you are free to shoot whatever you like that's going on on the street beside you - I seem to remember that some celebs tried to fight this with ¡Hola! some years ago but lost. However, I doubt that the freedom includes commercial work with models, tripods, lights etc. where the ayuntamiento will probably have its ear to the commercial noises in other cities around the world and expect to rake in a fat fee for doing nothing.

Rob C

michael

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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 06:24:14 pm »

There are numerous articles online and in books and magazines on this.

The law varies from country to country, but in general you can photograph people in public places without their permission. You can use these photographs for non-commercial purposes, including fine art and editorial, but only so long as the image isn't used to defame or ridicule the person. You need a model release for any commercial use.

I'm sure that there are lawyers online here who will jump in, but remember that the laws are different in each country. My comment above pertains to my understanding of the situation in the U.S. and Canada.

Michael
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EduPerez

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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 02:01:46 am »

I am not a lawyer, so use this comment as it is, but as a Spanish amateur photographer I have tried to stay informed about the laws in my country:

Here, almost everything than can be seen from a public space can be photographed; the only exception are special buildings when there is a security concern (think a police station), or when people is expected to have some privacy (think someone's bathroom visible through an window). Now, the restrictions are on the uses of such photographs: while journalistic uses (think a newspaper) are free (and that includes celebs, as Rob pointed out), commercial uses (think advertising) require an authorization from anybody identifiable in the photograph; pretty much what Michael wrote.

There is also a law which states that anything visible from a public space automatically loses its copyright; this way, a statue can be photographed and the photograph distributed, without having to pay to the sculptor. However, there is the case of a town hall that has trademarked a building (Ciutat de les Arts, in Valencia), so a commercial use of the image of such building is prohibited (personally, I am not sure if that prohibition would stand in a court).

Here in Barcelona, a commercial rig on the street with a tripod, or lights, etc. requires (paid) authorization; the official reason is that such rigs can cause an inconvenience to other citizens and must be regulated, but there is an obvious monetary interest.

Finally, if the act of photographing somebody or something is illegal, then the photograph is an evidence of such crime; and by deleting the photograph another crime is being committed. Only a judge can tell a photographer to delete a photograph, and I have never heard of such thing happening: usually he is only prohibited from using a photograph, but nothing else.
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fredjeang

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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 03:12:34 am »

Thanks for your repplies.
Yes, having done a research, the situation is pretty much the same in all western countries, with some subtle differences.

Cheers.
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stamper

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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 04:50:22 am »

In Scotland there is the big petroleum base in Grangemouth. Fire spills out of it's chimneys and it makes a good sunset shot. These shots have been taken from a nearby hill outside the base. Alas no longer because of terrorism laws. Shooting restricted sites even from the streets is now outlawed and it isn't obvious when you point a camera at one that you are breaking the law.

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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 05:06:58 am »

In Germany you can:
- photograph normal people in public places if they are not the main subject eg. just part of a big picutre of a building or landscape.
- photograph people as a main subject in public places if the public has a protectable  interest in this person eg. celebreties, politians, participants in a public event, like a marathon race, or vicitims and rescue personell of an accident.

You must not photograph anybody in a private situation.
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fredjeang

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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 09:48:59 am »

There's another interesting thread about street in the Coffe corner where this topic is being debating.
Basically it seems there is a contradiction between being discrete and showing your action.

But I'd like to notice here that in the Michael's streets, people are generally aware is taking them.
That's IMO a very good ethic. And that's not easy to do at all, beleive me. You need experience, confidence, lovely attitude etc...
But sometimes we do not want people to be aware and get a pose.
Difficult equation.

some links about one of the most agressive street shooter from Magnum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRBARi09je8 and http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx...=Bruce%20Gilden

Honestly, I don't understand how can't he get serious troubles. Can someone explains that?

cheers.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 11:35:27 am by fredjeang »
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schrodingerscat

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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 04:47:36 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Hi everybody,

Michael lastest pics make me thing about this:

Today I witnessed an unusual dispute in the street of Madrid while I was going to a work meeting.
A tourist with a big 200mm tele shoot from distance an old woman.
The Lady just jumped at him, insulting him like crazy and a group of people started to surrowding the poor guy saying that this was a violation to individual rights etc...in a very agressive way.
The guy erased the pic, (in reality the lady came in its field by accident while he was shooting a building). I tryed to defend him and calm down the others but it was impossible. Finally the tourist just moved a little scared and everything went back to normality. Some people did even want to bring the guy to the police. These extreme reactions and some recent stories that I've heard in Madrid make me wonder about the legal parts of street photography.

Street photography has never been my style, but for some reasons in the recent months I've been pushed by instinct to explore this kind of photography. The scene I just described makes me wonder about how far can we go and what are our rights and the other's.
How can this great Magnum photographer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRBARi09je8 not have problems? Is it because it's New-York?

I'd like to know if  the ones who practise "street" regularly are asking these people rights for publishing?
Are they aware the've been photographed? What are your ethics rules?
What can we do and what can't we do?

Have you ever experienced such a situation where you had hostility problems with some people you photographed?

Does Michael publish pics of people here without their consent?

etc...I think you got the idea.

Cheers.

I'm not that familiar with Spain, but could it have been a shakedown? In San Francisco the street "artists" are quite agressive regarding taking their picture and will actually become physical if you don't cross their palm. Had one guy try and chase me down because the camera was pointed in his general direction. Poor bugger would probably have been devastated to learn he wasn't the focal point of the pic. If in a poorer neighborhood, the locals might see it as a way to score some quick cash from the rich tourists. Expensive looking gear raises a certain perception and lots of tourists have a tendency to flaunt it a bit. I would always dress down when in Mexico, and we were usually in my GF's '64 Falcon so blended right it.

Never had a problem with the Leicas. It's only after going with a DSLR and fast lenses that folks seemed to become aware of the camera. Just picked up an M9, so will see if stealth mode still works. Another part of the equation may be the sheer number of people running around with seemingly "professional" equipment. Judging from what I see at the store I contract with, a lot of point-and-shooters from the film days are gravitating to DSLRs,  frequently with some honking 28-300 thing on the front.

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