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Author Topic: H3D-50ms vs. P65+  (Read 14602 times)

Jack Flesher

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2010, 04:48:39 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Jack, I own a DSLR and I also hate the files    
but the way to MFD and LF is expensive and I'm into savings.

  Ah Fred, you caught me before I could edit that little attempt at humor out of my post -- I figured it would probably just add gasoline to the fire...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 04:48:58 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Toto

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2010, 05:03:29 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
The electronic engineering world has a very precise definition of what Dynamic Range is, and it relates only to what is output from a digital sensor, ignoring any downstream processes that may enhance the raw signal set to further use.
I thought it was all about H3D50 and P65+ ...

Now, I understand it was all about MF and DSLR. lol

So, if Mark is a nice guy, we won't laugh anymore !

Peace and fun, friends  
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2010, 07:36:05 am »

Quote from: eronald
BTW, I have no problem admitting a back will outresolve an SLR and also give a different look. I see this in my images.

Edmund
If a camera with an Anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light destined for each pixel over the adjacent pixels, then you would need to down-res by a factor of 9 to compensate... but I do not know what proportion of the light is spread over the adjacent pixels ...and it should be technically possible to make a camera with a fixed sensor without an AA.

Are the first digital backs ever made still better than the latest 24 MPx DSLRs?
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fredjeang

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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2010, 12:12:19 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
If a camera with an Anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light destined for each pixel over the adjacent pixels, then you would need to down-res by a factor of 9 to compensate... but I do not know what proportion of the light is spread over the adjacent pixels ...and it should be technically possible to make a camera with a fixed sensor without an AA.

Are the first digital backs ever made still better than the latest 24 MPx DSLRs?
Dick, I unfortunately do not own to date a MFD but I've been working with both dslr files and mfd in severe post production for arquitecture.
The files from a 1Ds mark 3 (do not know the ones from Nikon D3) certainly do not reach the files from any of the first MFD, at least for serious post production needs.
But if I say that too loud in the forum then missiles will fall.  
Also I can not bring the proof here of what I'm saying,  because I do not own the mfd files, so it is more a question of trusting the field experience.
But I'm more than sure than users who own both system and work daily with them will confirm that fact.

Cheers,

Fred.
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Doug Peterson

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2010, 01:24:31 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
If a camera with an Anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light destined for each pixel over the adjacent pixels, then you would need to down-res by a factor of 9 to compensate... but I do not know what proportion of the light is spread over the adjacent pixels ...and it should be technically possible to make a camera with a fixed sensor without an AA.

Are the first digital backs ever made still better than the latest 24 MPx DSLRs?

It's actually a very interesting exercise to see a Phase One H25 (around $4-$5k, first released in 2003) next to a Canon 1Ds III or 5D Mark 2. The H25 files hold up extremely well side-by-side. In most areas of image quality I would favor the H25 (we are a Canon Dealer so that's what I have for points of comparison). Differences become more evident as the file is pushed/pulled/shadow-or-highlight recovered, changed in WB, or otherwise post processed) - the H25 file takes a tremendous amount of punishment.  It's worth noting the H25 only performed/performs well at ISO 50 or 100 - but it's now 7 years old and costs less than a 1Ds III and we still have many shooters using their H25s for applications like product photography or macro work - and many of them also own 5D Mark 2s (or similar) and could be using them but still use the H25 because of the image quality and the ability to use it on a view camera with full movements.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:26:58 pm by dougpetersonci »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2010, 02:46:08 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
...we still have many shooters using their H25s for applications like product photography or macro work - and many of them also own 5D Mark 2s (or similar) and could be using them but still use the H25 because of the image quality and the ability to use it on a view camera with full movements.

Thanks, Doug.

Most of what you you say is of no surprise to me, but Macro and product photography are two areas in which I would contemplate using a small format camera (D-lux 3, M9)... for the greater DOF.

Movements enable one to make the most of the reduced DOF of  MF, but a small format camera would enable me to take adequate (for some jobs) "snapshots" without using movements.

MF is popular  is for portrait/fashion work, as a portrait looks sharp if you can clearly see individual hairs, but MF lacks the DOF to get a whole head in focus (without using a very small aperture which might result in diffraction).

For DOF-limited applications small pixels are best, and could they not minimize noise by letting us use 2 micron pixels at 12 iso? 12 iso would not be a problem for the studio photographer on small sets, and for bigger sets, I have 4 Elinchrome 1500s.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 03:08:31 pm by Dick Roadnight »
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Nick-T

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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2010, 02:56:15 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thanks, Doug.

Most of what you you say is of no surprise to me, but Macro and product photography are two areas in which I would contemplate using a small format camera (D-lux 3, M9)... for the greater DOF.

Movements enable one to make the most of the reduced DOF of  MF, but a small format camera would enable me to take adequate (for some jobs) "snapshots" without using movements.

MF is popular  is for portrait/fashion work, as a portrait looks sharp if you can clearly see individual hairs, but MR lack the DOF to get a whole head in focus (without using a very small aperture which might result in diffraction).

For DOF-limited applications small pixels are best, and could they not minimize noise by letting us use 2 micron pixels at 12 iso? 12 iso would not be a problem for the studio photographer on small sets, and for bigger sets, I have 4 Elinchrome 1500s.

Dick I'm curious how do you know all this stuff?

Nick-T
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fredjeang

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2010, 03:05:10 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thanks, Doug.

Most of what you you say is of no surprise to me, but Macro and product photography are two areas in which I would contemplate using a small format camera (D-lux 3, M9)... for the greater DOF.

Movements enable one to make the most of the reduced DOF of  MF, but a small format camera would enable me to take adequate (for some jobs) "snapshots" without using movements.

MF is popular  is for portrait/fashion work, as a portrait looks sharp if you can clearly see individual hairs, but MR lack the DOF to get a whole head in focus (without using a very small aperture which might result in diffraction).

For DOF-limited applications small pixels are best, and could they not minimize noise by letting us use 2 micron pixels at 12 iso? 12 iso would not be a problem for the studio photographer on small sets, and for bigger sets, I have 4 Elinchrome 1500s.
Dick, are you serious ??

Fred.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2010, 03:07:44 pm »

Quote from: Nick-T
Dick I'm curious how do you know all this stuff?

Nick-T
... I have been learning about photography for 50+ years. I am an Agricultural Electronic Engineer, so I have an interest in things technical.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2010, 03:24:49 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Dick, are you serious ??

Fred.
... you mean about 2 micron 12 iso pixels?

If low-iso small pixels could be made it would help the DOF/res compromise.

I thought that the disadvantage of small pixels was noise, due to the small "sample" (=number of photons/pixel) and they might be able to fix this with low iso. ... but people like small cameras to have high iso, so it would be a very specialist camera (or digital back), so no one would manufacture it.

¿If the photons/pixel limit 4 micron pixels to 50 iso, (or 6 microns to 100) it would seem logical that 12 iso would be right for 2 micron?

Small pixels would have little space for "photon" storage, so 2 micron pixels would probably not be able to have a high iso, or high dynamic range.
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TMARK

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« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2010, 03:35:08 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
... you mean about 2 micron 12 iso pixels?

No.  Everything.  Just everything is so strange, outside of people's experience actually using cameras to make photographs.  No disrespect intended, but maybe its time to put some theory into practice.

I liked your idea of using a beam trigger for sports.  Please go out and try it!
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tho_mas

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« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2010, 03:35:48 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
... you mean about 2 micron 12 iso pixels?
I assume he wondered how you shoot marcos and products with a rangefinder camera... or so...
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fredjeang

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2010, 04:12:20 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
... you mean about 2 micron 12 iso pixels?

If low-iso small pixels could be made it would help the DOF/res compromise.

I thought that the disadvantage of small pixels was noise, due to the small "sample" (=number of photons/pixel) and they might be able to fix this with low iso. ... but people like small cameras to have high iso, so it would be a very specialist camera (or digital back), so no one would manufacture it.

¿If the photons/pixel limit 4 micron pixels to 50 iso, (or 6 microns to 100) it would seem logical that 12 iso would be right for 2 micron?

Small pixels would have little space for "photon" storage, so 2 micron pixels would probably not be able to have a high iso, or high dynamic range.
Ok, I did not get your point first as I'm useless in ingineering. Thanks for these aclarations.
On the Sigmas there is a 50 iso mode wich is an extended mode.
You effictively gain in grain free but you loose DR in highlights   Sigma made it clear about it and warned users. Do not know why.
A 25 iso would be spectacular but I wonder about the technical difficulties in others aspects.
An interesting proposal.

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 04:55:32 pm by fredjeang »
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JDG

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« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2010, 04:24:33 pm »

Smaller pixels would not get you more depth of field, but likey less.  Smaller pixels show less depth of field because they resolve sharper details in the middle than were previously resolved with larger pixel lower resolution backs.  Hence P65+ has narrower DOF at an equal aperture than say a P25+.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2010, 06:08:22 pm »

Quote from: JDG
Smaller pixels would not get you more depth of field, but likey less.  Smaller pixels show less depth of field because they resolve sharper details in the middle than were previously resolved with larger pixel lower resolution backs.  Hence P65+ has narrower DOF at an equal aperture than say a P25+.

When viewed at 100%. Downsize the 65+ files to the 25+ size and the DOF will be the same (ignoring the slightly larger chip size).

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2010, 06:02:22 am »

Quote from: JDG
Smaller pixels would not get you more depth of field, but likey less.  Smaller pixels show less depth of field because they resolve sharper details in the middle than were previously resolved with larger pixel lower resolution backs.  Hence P65+ has narrower DOF at an equal aperture than say a P25+.
DOF is a function of magnification.
For a given pixel count, smaller pixels give you a smaller sensor.
A smaller sensor gives you less magnification.
Less magnification gives you more DOF
It is a mathematical fact.

Low-res cameras have better DOF partly as DOF is also function of Circle Of Confusion (which depends on the lens and the pixel size). ...so you can be more out of focus without the image being any less sharp than your lens/sensor could be in the middle on the axis of the lens in the middle of the plane of sharpest focus.

If you have a 60Mpx sensor, and you only need 20 for a job where DOF is critical you can improve DOF by using a wider lens and cropping down to a smaller format. (less magnification).

The above applies if you use a smaller (part of a) sensor with the same number of (smaller) pixels. If you use a sensor with the same size but more (smaller) pixels, you would calculate the DOF with smaller Circle Of Confusion, (assuming that the pixel size was the limiting factor for res) and you would get less DOF... but you could the crop and get your DOF back.

...of course the 40lp/mm digital specialist lenses we have now would be out-resolved by pixels smaller than about 4-5 microns, so we would need a new set of lenses.

...of course if you use pixels much smaller than about 2 microns, no lens could out resolve them, as the pixel size would be getting too close to the wavelength of light (. 4 to .7 microns).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:37:21 am by Dick Roadnight »
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