HELP! rollei 6001 & 6008i mirror lockup

[healeystudio]

We are testing an Hasselblad CF39-MS back.  Long story short, we have had other problems, but now we cannot keep the mirror up for a multi-shot.  We use the mirror lock up button on the left side of the camera (lens facing away).  The mirror locks up, but then back triggers a shot and the mirror goes back down, then the back triggers 4 more shots and the mirror pops up and down 4 times, causing some motion on the camera and spoiling our multishot.  We have tried both our Rollei bodies, the 6001 and the 6008i and we cannot get this to work.

How can we lock up the mirror to stay up for the 5 shots we need to capture a proper multi-shot image?

I have read that Rollei's are one of the cameras that can be used with a MS back, unlike say a Bronica which cannot.  Unfortunately I cannot remember where I read this.

It seems so simple but obviously we are missing something.  Any help would be very much appreciated.

[EricWHiss]

John,
As far as I know this is only possible with the 6008AF body, but if you have not already tried using the multishot cable you should. You can order this from hasselblad and cost is approx $75.   btw - when I use my multi-shot back on either of my Rollei bodies the mirror cycles through every frame, however mirror shake has not been an issue even with the microstep shots (18 plus frames).   And I even have successfully done multishot with the camera just laying on my desk - not even on a tripod.
Eric

[Graham Mitchell]

See post #9 here:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1617

[EricWHiss]

Graham,
I'm EH21 in the thread you linked at GetDip.  I don't think that works for 6008i bodies...    I'd try the multi-shot cable.   Actually the support tech at Hasselblad USA, Anders, is really very knowledgeable with the Rollei stuff.  His contact info is below:

Anders Espersen
Hasselblad USA Inc.
Tech Support Department
support@hasselbladusa.com


If you want to order the multishot cable  - you can order that here:
Parts - Ken Caddell at 800-367-6434


Regards,
Eric

[healeystudio]

If you want to order the multishot cable  - you can order that here:
Parts - Ken Caddell at 800-367-6434

Eric, I don't suppose you have an item number or a better description of this cable.  It has been several years since Hasselblad has sold stuff for Rollei and the guys are rusty.  At least concerning Rollei/Hasselblad interface.

We have a cable here, it has the whatever pin Din that goes into the electronic shutter release port on the Rollei and has two male connectors on the other end of the cord.  one red and one green.  They go into the flash in port (green) and the middle (shutter release for view camera?) port (red) on the CF back.  Is this the cable you are talking about or is there another one that you are referring to?

Getting this cable we have now is one of the parts of the long story I referred to at the beginning of this thread.

We are testing a back and there is a possibility that the piezo motor for the MS needs to be recalibrated, so that may be why we are not getting good MS shots off our back.  I wanted to rule out any motion problems before I start blaming the back mechanics.  It is good to know that the mirror movement is not causing you any loss of quality in the MS mode.  The Rollei is built like a tank, so I can believe it when you say that.  Thanks in advance.

[Nick-T]

We are testing a back and there is a possibility that the piezo motor for the MS needs to be recalibrated, so that may be why we are not getting good MS shots off our back.

Can you describe the quality issues with the shots?
Nick-T

[EricWHiss]

Eric, I don't suppose you have an item number or a better description of this cable.  It has been several years since Hasselblad has sold stuff for Rollei and the guys are rusty.  At least concerning Rollei/Hasselblad interface.

John,

What's the exact error message you are getting?  Does it say you had too much motion?  And if you are getting far enough to actually perform the multishot, then you may not gain anything with the cable.

Regarding part numbers - it's going to be either RolleiX/AF expose cable (#50300121) which is what I use for the ixpress multishot or this part for which is listed for the 39MS backs #50300178.      But still you may find that the mirror cycles through each shot on the 6008 integral.  You'd have to check with Hasselblad support.    It's my belief that the 6008AF body needs no cable and will operate without cycling the mirror.       The 50300121 cable has a fitting on one end that plugs into the 6008 remote release connector and the other is a muti pin connector that fits into the back.  I've seen the cable you refer to that splits into two red and green jack ends but I'm not using it.


Anyhow, I'd be surprised  if it was the mirror.   The mirror cycling on both of my cameras does not create significant movement to disrupt even the 16 shot microstep shots.  I have compared this to the microstep shots done on my X-Act2 technical camera where there is no mirror and not seen significant difference.   The mirror on the Rollei bodies is very well damped and there is a pause between the mirror and the shot anyhow in the multishot algrorithm.  I would not think this could be causing you problems.  The usual error I get with the multishot is when the the subject moves or when someone bumped the tripod but this would be expected.   You might read about trains or trucks going by causing movement errors but I haven't found this to be a real problem.  

One other thing to check is the shutter delay settings and your tripod mount.  I had a universal arca style tripod mount (the kind with a slice of cork on the side between the camera and plate) that was just not tight enough and allowed some wiggle (more so than the camera just sitting on the table) and that did give me a multishot problem but was easily fixed with a different plate.

Eric

[Nick-T]

It's my belief that the 6008AF body needs no cable and will operate without cycling the mirror.

My Ixpress user guide does indeed say that the 6008 does not need a cable. As Eric says try setting a longer "flash delay" in prefs as this will allow the mirror to settle. I always had problems with mirror slap on a 503CW which was why I bought a digiflex way back when. I assume the Rollei's mirror is better damped than the V system.

The reason I asked above about the quality issues you are having was to try and isolate the issue.
Nick-T

[EricWHiss]

My Ixpress user guide does indeed say that the 6008 does not need a cable. As Eric says try setting a longer "flash delay" in prefs as this will allow the mirror to settle. I always had problems with mirror slap on a 503CW which was why I bought a digiflex way back when. I assume the Rollei's mirror is better damped than the V system.

The reason I asked above about the quality issues you are having was to try and isolate the issue.
Nick-T

I can't speak to the hasselblad bodies as I never used them, however I can say with confidence that the only way the mirror on the 6008 is going to cause problems with the multishot is if the camera to tripod mount is flimsy or the tripod is not locked and then you'd be seeing a movement error on multishot pop up on the screen as the final image is being assembled.   Also I don't think that changing the delay settings in the back or in Phocus/flexcolor will make much difference as there already is enough delay built into the rollei protocol.  That said, some other settings such as exposure time in flexcolor / phocus will cause the file to have streaks or other weird probs when set in-correctly.  

When there is camera shake or subject movement the software will report an error.  
When the shutter/exposure setting is set incorrectly you can get a weird looking image without an error being reported.
When only a small portion of the subject in the frame has movement, you can get a great looking file except for the small area where movement was and that will have hashmarks in it. No error will be reported.

John is any of the above describing your problem?

[healeystudio]

Thanks for all the input!

We have resolved the issue (except for the faintest faintest "hash marks" which are nearly invisible expect now I am looking for them like a person obsessed).

As per Hasselblad's advice (they were not open on the West coast yet when we were having issues) we loaded flexcolor which has settings that match our camera built in.  Flexcolor's default delay was enough to eliminate the "hash marks or bit mapping" we were seeing. I can now say that I am officially impressed.  Dang ... the color ...

I could not find a setting in Phocus to change the delay, maybe Phocus is better for some things, but for working with non H cameras Flexcolor seems to be better.  But I have just started tinkering with these software programs so it may just be my ignorance showing here.

I don't know if the delay allows the motion from the mirror to settle, but what it definitely does is allow my flash units to recover.  I now realize after it is working correctly that I was not hearing my strobes beep after recovery but the back beep after every shot.  Now that the strobes beep too it is a cacaphony while I take MS shots.  Well music to my ears actually.

To describe our problem, For Nick, Eric and for others that may be lurking.  We had square jaggies, "hash marks?", fine bitmapping like artifacts in our MS shots that did not appear on identical single exposure shots.  I am assuming since the multi shot takes four images, moving the sensor one pixel over, up and over almost any small error would cause this particular pattern.  This was causing the single shots to appear sharper than the MS shots.  

Also we have contacted Rollei (or really former Rollei people) they are looking into whether the Rollei mirror can be locked up with a software change.  But it seems the default for the Rollei 6001 and 6008i is that the mirror will pop down after the shutter is released, regardless of the settings.  If we find a fix to keep the mirror up, we will post an update.  But for now, it is working.  It ain't broke...  In short I am ruling out the mirror movement as a culprit.

Thanks again.  Learned much from your posts other than what I was having problems with.  Always a pleasure.

[Nick-T]

Thanks for all the input!

We have resolved the issue (except for the faintest faintest "hash marks" which are nearly invisible expect now I am looking for them like a person obsessed).

Yep the "hash" marks are an exact indicator of changing light, possibly as you say that your flashes hadn't time to re-cycle. Movement manifests itself as magenta/green artifacts in the image and looks quite different. I suggest you give the camera a wiggle during a multi-shot so you can see what this looks like, also change the flash power half way through so you can see the "hash" effect clearly.
BTW the hash effect tends to be subtle at 100% often and probably wouldn't print but stands out very well at 66%.
Finally, always grab a quick single when shooting multi... Sometimes hours after the shoot when re-touching you'll find something moved. In a very serendipitous way the things that move tend to be organic and therefor do not benefit from a multi-shot. Oh yes and when you layer up a single over a 4 shot you will need to move the single 2 px across and two down (or is it up) with a few taps of the arrow key (do itwith top layer at 50% opacity or at 100 but with blend set to difference).

HTH
Nick-T

[EricWHiss]

Nick,
That's good to know about the 2px.  

As far as hash lines, I do see this with movement - for example shooting  a shot of a field of clover - there maybe a few that moved and while the bulk of the image is fine a few will have hashmarks.  But I only see those in the sharp focus region.  Out of focus parts of the image don't suffer from this, which sort of makes sense.  So if you shoot a scene with clouds and the clouds move between frames of the multishot, you typically don't see hashmarks - at least not all the time.  And yes you're right - having a single to lay over is a very nice way to clean those up.

[healeystudio]

Nick and Eric,

The single shot "patch" technique is sweet.  Thanks!  

Also your descriptions of what 'hash marks' look like and how they occur is very informative.  

At this point in our experience we just know when something is wrong, not what is wrong.  I'll take the camera and back off of the camera stand and give it a jiggle to see what happens, great little experiment.

Thanks again.

[healeystudio]

The 6008i can be set to keep its mirror up between shots by using the Master Control integral unit. This function can also be stored permanently under the programmable button that is used as a time delay by default. So you will not need the Master Control to set it each time and the function will be stored in camera until you do a hard reset to factory values. When programmed under the "special" switch it goes like this: set the "special" switch to "on" and at the first exposure the mirror will go up and stay there, until you set the switch back and fire once more. Then the mirror will return. Of course you can use the lockup of the mirror before you go into multi-exposure so that there will be absolutely no vibration from the camera during the shooting cycle. The shutters in the Rollei lenses are absolutely free of shake because they are rotation balanced. So there is a shock wave, but it extends with the exact same energy in all directions at the same time.

I was not able to check, but I think that the 6001 can be operated with the old cable release that has a switch that can hold the mirror up as long as you want, while firing the shutter. The original 6008 had this functionality for certain (I used it many times) and basic 6001 electronics are the same. Unfortunaly this model of cable release (with the separate mirror hold switch) does not work with 6008i.

If you can borrow a Master Control integral unit from someone you can set the multi-shot function under the special button permanently and give the Master Control back.

EPd

Thanks, EPd!

AWESOME!  I am out hunting for a loaner/rental Master Control right now.  Purchase new is out of the question. Budget is broke due to the CF39-MS back.

Anyone out there got a Master Control they want to loan/rent/sell for cheap?

We do have the old style cable release, just two switches, mirror and shutter.  I do not remember which camera we tested with what anymore.  We are doing testing after we finish our work for the day, so we are not being as organized or methodical as we should be.  We need to use a cable to allow the digital back and the Rollei to communicate, the cable uses the same port as the cable release, so we cannot hold the button down while shooting with the digital back.  So that probably will not work.  But that does not mean we won't give it a try.

Let me just say in addition.  This forum is just great.