Capture One 5 - A serious warning regarding your metadata

[Mike Boden]

By the way if the files have metadata before they are loaded by C1 the metadata appears fine.

That's what I'm saying. I added metadata before opening file in C1. Thus, C1 one is indeed seeing the metadata. The problem for me, is that it's passing through the keywords only when the file is processed and not the other metadata that I've input as well. I think this is very strange. Why would C1 see the metadata but not pass it through during process?

[Mike Boden]

FYI, I created a support case at Phase One about my test results. Here is their reply:

Dear Michael,
thank you very much for doing such a comprehensive test. Our developers are already looking into the case so we could change the application's behaviour in future versions.

Right now the best solution is to add the metadata after processing. We are aware of the restrictions of this and will try to find a solution as soon as we can.

Thank you very much for your understanding and for contacting us.
With kind regards,

Jakub
Phase One Technical Support

[Adrian Lambert]

Ah, sorry. I'm doing too many things at once here. I should have taken more time to read it properly.
So after you have seen the pics in C1 with the metadata stripped, if you return to PM, is the metadata still there? In my case, at least once, it wasn't. It had been removed seemingly by c1.

[Mike Boden]

So after you have seen the pics in C1 with the metadata stripped, if you return to PM, is the metadata still there?

In the most simple of terms, I am inputing metadata before C1. I then see the metadata in C1. After processing the image, only the keywords are passed through. Additionally, the original CR2 file retains the metadata and is seen in PhotoMechanic. So...C1 is not altering the CR2 file.

[Doug Peterson]

You mean that Capture One is actually physically changing your RAW file and stripping your metadata? I find this hard to believe. When does this happen? Just when viewing the RAW file in Capture One or after processing it? Can you see from the modified date of the file in Finder that it has been changed?

One of the central tenants of Capture One is that it does not make any write commands to a raw file. So no, nothing here involves C1 changing the raw files. I have never seen a case where C1 has made a change to a raw file and would politely request that anyone claiming this is happening would be especially sure they are not mistaken (which is very easy to happen).

One thought: depending on the OS, Permissions, and how each software package addresses the file it may be the case that a program like PM may not be able to save the changes to the raw file (a program like PM does not have the same tenant as C1 of never making a write command to a raw file) if the file has been locked for use by C1 (e.g. C1 is open or was recently closed) and may or may not gracefully indicate it's lack of being able to save the changes therefore creating them impression that C1 has "stripped" that change. I am completely speculating - I have not used PM in several years.

Re: metadata implementation specifics and workflow that I agree could use a lot of improvement. C1 version 5.0 is the first modern version of C1 to implement any serious attempt at metadata management; it is not a core strength of the program, and can be very much expected to improve in the coming months.


Doug Peterson
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[Schewe]

In the most simple of terms, I am inputing metadata before C1. I then see the metadata in C1.

And there is, essentially the problem...

PM is actually taking the extreme liberty to write into (update and modify) the original raw file...and that is bad juju...

Nikon has been burned and anybody writing into a raw file format that is _NOT_ fully documented is taking a real risk.

I've talked with the author of PM several ties about this issue and he's fearless (which I would normally consider a good thing) except for the fact that writing ANYTHING into an undocumented and proprietary raw file format is playing with fire...

Admittedly, C1's metadata handling is primitive...and Photo Mechanic's handling is advanced (arguably TOO advanced) so the net result is that some sort of DAM _AFTER_ PM and C! is needed such as Lightroom.

Clearly, stuff added in PM SHULD be picked up by downstream applications...but ONLY if the metadata is properly written (and in the case of PM that's NOT 100% clear).

Bottom line-this stuff just BARELY WORKS-and the more that software makers can work together, the better. I'm happy to pass this whole thread off to the guys at C1 who could do something about this....but I think Dennis is gonna hafta blink too...

P.S. I've know Dennis for over a decade and he's a Really Good Guy (RGG™) but is still human and as such, prone to errors...

[Mike Boden]

PM is actually taking the extreme liberty to write into (update and modify) the original raw file...and that is bad juju...

You are very correct with this viewpoint, and I don't argue the fact.

But I think you're missing the point. Whether the metadata is written in the RAW file with PM or if it's written to a XMP sidecar file with Bridge, C1 sees the metadata, but ONLY PASSES THROUGH THE KEYWORDS.

So...this has nothing to do with whether PM should or should not write to the RAW file. It has all to do with C1 not correctly processing the metadata.

[craigwashburn]

Looks like a new version of C1 (5.0.1) is available to download...

[Adrian Lambert]

One thought: depending on the OS, Permissions, and how each software package addresses the file it may be the case that a program like PM may not be able to save the changes to the raw file

OK, I've taken some time to look at C1 5.0.1 with regards to this issue. I can't seem to replicate it. So The comment about permissions may  hold water. I had checked the PM settings and all seemed fine at this time. In fact they work on a daily basis as expected. After the experience that I originally posted about I admit that I have steered clear of C1 5 save for testing. In fact our studio is looking seriously at other products for our conversions over the next few weeks. If C1 doesn't write to RAW files then it sounds like they are in the clear on this occasion. Nonetheless the circumstances in the OP are accurate. The metadata was applied in PM4.5 to the CR2 files, then opened in C1 5. When examined again in PM4.5 the metadata wasn't present. It is certainly easy to point the finger at C1 given it's recent history. Our experience with C1 and C1 support has been pretty dire to date.

[Doug Peterson]

OK, I've taken some time to look at C1 5.0.1 with regards to this issue. I can't seem to replicate it. So The comment about permissions may  hold water. I had checked the PM settings and all seemed fine at this time. [...] If C1 doesn't write to RAW files then it sounds like they are in the clear on this occasion. [...]

See :-P Now say three nice things about C1.

In all seriousness, thanks for the update.

Doug Peterson
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[Phil Indeblanc]

I would love to hear from other users on their experiences on this. I'd love to find out that we are doing something wrong, or that a reinstall would fix this issue...

I always take all the metadata out anyway.....With Db's you have an ISO, and a shutter speed, which doesn't make for a ref point in my future shoots.
I replace metadata with my own as I have created sets for different needs using ACDSee Pro3. I also find it has info I dont want easily available.

I don't think Bridge can completely clear the tags. That thing crashes too often for me anyway. Even version ACDSeepro 2 did this portion rather well.  

PhotoMechanic I have tried and I thought it looked good and powerful, but had some limitations I cant remember, as I think I tried every image browser I was able to download and try. It was either PhotoMechanic or another program that was geared towards news angencies. Some side by side comapring issues I think?
I have used ACDSee for many years. Often deleted it in search of better. Since Pro 2, They have come a long way of shaping and tweaking the software, as it always had some issue and mising the mark. The Pro 3 is a step up, and  a really good program.  
It automates many things I like doing which is mainly sending off limited softproofs for clients.  Although It tries to do more than it "should" (Raw processing of many cameras, but not a couple of mine) but at least it isn't in the way of other things. And it takes out other programs that I had to use in conjunction with.. like Bridge,Opanda, Lightroom. The only thing that I wish it did now is PDF's with CMYK support (Bridge does well).  

So, if you want to manage by metadata, One of ACDSee Pro 3's abilities is doing this very well.

[peter.s.]

Just a side note but with exiftool, which is probably the most extensive metadata reader/writer of all (and free), you can easily copy all metadata from one file to another. It's also a very useful tool to extract all metadata and see where it is stored as some metadata appear in different places.

As it is up to every application to read and write the metadata there will always be discrepancies.