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Author Topic: CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets  (Read 49423 times)

digitaldog

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2009, 12:40:52 pm »

Quote from: adamlogan
... in order to print images via Photoshop you would have to convert or assign the printer profile to the document profile to keep colorsync from interfering.

You have to convert, assign will not work (it doesn’t change the numbers, only the definition of the numbers).

Quote
If you convert the profile whites are no longer pure IE RGB 255.

Did you pick an Absolute Colorimetric intent?
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madmanchan

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« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2009, 12:59:29 pm »

There seems to be some miscommunication regarding the scope of the proposed workaround.

The proposed workaround was only ever intended to be used for printing profile targets, for the purposes of building profiles.

It was never intended to be used for printing normal images, once you already have profiles.

It is possible that other, related workarounds are needed to print normal images if using an older printer model with an older driver. It would not surprise me. However, I have not researched it.
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adamlogan

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2009, 02:34:07 am »

@ digitaldog

I used the perceptual rendering intent when converting document profile to match the custom printer profile. I picked perceptual rendering intent in the print dialogue as well but I am guessing that this is moot since there is no out of gamut colors after the conversion has taken place.

I still gotta wrap my mind around some concepts in color management. Right now I'm struggling to visualize what exactly assigning a profile to the document color space does. The same RGB number would look different depending on the color spaces because some are bigger, others are smaller, and they encompass different spatial dimensions. Pro Photo has yellows that Adobe RGB does not. When I assign the custom printer profile, is that kind of like "Preserve RGB Numbers"? Sorry for bringing this up here, I guess I'm getting off topic. I am just eager for a resolution, but it's also important to me that I understand what's going on with my colors.

@ madmanchan

Are you talking about the Generic RGB workaround? What are some other workarounds I should investigate?
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eronald

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2009, 05:08:21 am »

Quote from: madmanchan
There seems to be some miscommunication regarding the scope of the proposed workaround.

The proposed workaround was only ever intended to be used for printing profile targets, for the purposes of building profiles.

It was never intended to be used for printing normal images, once you already have profiles.

It is possible that other, related workarounds are needed to print normal images if using an older printer model with an older driver. It would not surprise me. However, I have not researched it.

If you can print a target, you can can also print with the resulting profile: Do a conversion using relative or perceptual intent of any image into devicespace, and then print it using your devicespace workflow. Converting using absolute won't work with normal profiles, unless I'm wrong, because of a white point issue, although I've heard this can be easily fixed by editing the profile. Whether you actually need such a workaround for printing images is a different story; however the above technique is one I use regularly for assembling composite images when testing gamut mappings or comparing profiles.

Edmund
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digitaldog

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2009, 09:09:09 am »

Quote from: adamlogan
I still gotta wrap my mind around some concepts in color management. Right now I'm struggling to visualize what exactly assigning a profile to the document color space does. The same RGB number would look different depending on the color spaces because some are bigger, others are smaller, and they encompass different spatial dimensions.

R0/G255/B/0 isn’t the same color in sRGB as Adobe RGB (1998) nor ProPhoto RGB. Same number, different color (because its a different color space). When you assign a profile, you tell Photoshop the scale of the numbers. The number don’t change, the color appearance does because the definition of the numbers, the scale is different.
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abiggs

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2009, 10:32:40 am »

well articulated, Andrew.
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adamlogan

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« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2009, 01:42:12 pm »

@ digitaldog
Thanks for the explanation, very clear. I find it strange that 255 permutation of each color (RGB) has different "scale" in different color spaces.

@ eronald
Quote
Converting using absolute won't work with normal profiles, unless I'm wrong, because of a white point issue, although I've heard this can be easily fixed by editing the profile

How would I go about doing this? Make a copy of the RGB 1728 Bill Atkinson reference file and change the RGB number for the first patch? Does it involve editing the image itself in Photoshop?
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digitaldog

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2009, 01:50:04 pm »

Quote from: adamlogan
@ digitaldog
Thanks for the explanation, very clear. I find it strange that 255 permutation of each color (RGB) has different "scale" in different color spaces.

Think of it this way. If you ask me how far I live from you and I say 1000, you don’t know if I mean 1000 miles, 1000 yards, 1000 kilometers. When we say G255, without the scale (the color space), the number alone is as ambiguous as when I say “I live 1000 from you”.

When Photoshop knows G255 is associated with a scale (sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998), ProPhoto RGB), it can now preview the color based on that info. So the preview updates. The numbers don’t.

Gas in the US and gas in the UK are basically the same. But when I ask someone the cost of gas and they are buying it by the litter and I’m buying it by the gallon, while the gas is the same, the resulting number isn’t because the scale is different.

If you look at the CIE chromaticity diagram which defines human vision, if you plot the gamut of sRGB and then ProPhoto RGB, you see 255G falls in a vastly different location (the scale is not the same). We use the same numbers to define the most saturated green but they fall in different locations within color space. Numbers alone can’t define a color. We need numbers and the scale, in this case, the scale is a color space.
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DesW

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2009, 05:07:55 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
But when I ask someone the cost of gas and they are buying it by the litter and I’m buying it by the gallon.

G'day Dog,

Ummm-- You mean from a CAT(cracker)or for a CAT(alytic) vehicle?


DesW
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adamlogan

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2009, 03:53:16 pm »

I just made a new color profile for my personal monitor today on Snow Leopard. Is the Apple Colorsync issue only affecting printers, or does it affect other devices too such as displays, scanners etc? Did Apple really mess with colorsync just so that the regular consumer would get better prints out of iPhoto?
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Schewe

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2009, 04:21:39 pm »

The issue only effects printing profile target files from Photoshop CS4 and certain Epson printers...has nothing to do with any other devices. Although there does seem to be Snow Leopard issues with multiple displays on the same system.

And that has nothing to do with the print pipeline other than all this stuff are primarily Snow Leopard issues and at 10.6.2 still seems to be causing a lot of "issues" for a variety of people (although the data loss bugs seems to have been fixed in 10.6.1 or 10.6.2).
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Wayne Fox

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2009, 07:28:45 pm »

Quote from: adamlogan
I just made a new color profile for my personal monitor today on Snow Leopard. Is the Apple Colorsync issue only affecting printers, or does it affect other devices too such as displays, scanners etc? Did Apple really mess with colorsync just so that the regular consumer would get better prints out of iPhoto?

Not sure they messed with colorsync for that express purpose.  What they seem to be trying to do is develop a more robust and color aware printer pipeline, with perhaps Aperture being the main target for these improvements.  The end result is that all printing from the OS can be color managed and printed with the correct profile - iPhoto, Preview, Safari, etc.  This began with Leopard, not Snow Leopard.  In that process they overlooked the fact that a very small portion of their users (miniscule might be a better word) need more advanced control.  At least they have acknowledged and understand this now.

The issues surrounding Snow Leopard are somewhat puzzling.  I'm not sure what changes were made to the printing pipeline, but I thought most of those were done with Leopard, not Snow Leopard.  However, SL seems to have introduced a rash of printing challenges for many users, while others (such as myself) have printed just fine with no need for any work around except the now well documented issue of printing unmanaged targets for creating profiles.
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Doyle Yoder

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2009, 07:47:29 pm »

It appears that the problem for many people in doing an upgrade to SL something got messed up. The solution that has worked for many is to use the installer to uninstall the drivers, delete the driver cache file and install and then add back in. In one upgrade to SL I saw the printer was no longer registered with ColorSync. Starting with Leopard that is a must.

Doyle
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eronald

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2009, 06:22:00 am »

Quote from: DYP
It appears that the problem for many people in doing an upgrade to SL something got messed up. The solution that has worked for many is to use the installer to uninstall the drivers, delete the driver cache file and install and then add back in. In one upgrade to SL I saw the printer was no longer registered with ColorSync. Starting with Leopard that is a must.

Doyle

Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?

Edmund
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Doyle Yoder

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« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2009, 07:09:37 am »

Quote from: eronald
Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?

Edmund

Example of cache locations.

/Library/Caches/Canon

or could be in the User /Users/"you"/Library/Caches folders.

Just delete the cache file or folder.

I don't think that this will fix the issue of coding that does something different when PS Manages Color as opposed to when No Color Management is selected.

Doyle
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2009, 11:33:04 am »

Quote from: Schewe
The issue only effects printing profile target files from Photoshop CS4 and certain Epson printers...has nothing to do with any other devices. Although there does seem to be Snow Leopard issues with multiple displays on the same system.

And that has nothing to do with the print pipeline other than all this stuff are primarily Snow Leopard issues and at 10.6.2 still seems to be causing a lot of "issues" for a variety of people (although the data loss bugs seems to have been fixed in 10.6.1 or 10.6.2).

This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well.  Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.

There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2.  See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727
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Doyle Yoder

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« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2009, 02:08:36 pm »

Quote from: SimonS
This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well.  Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.

There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2.  See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727

I think there needs to be a list made of what printers it affects. Because I know it does not affect the Canon iPF printers at least in LR2 and PSCS4. I do know there is software like the the LR3 beta that does not work correctly.

For you does ColorMunki allow you to make selections in Color Matching or are they grayed out? If they are grayed out to what do they default to?

In your advance guide http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controll...#ModelDetailAct

Under Advanced Guide > Printing from a Computer > Printing with Other Application Software > Changing the Print Quality and Correcting Image Data > Specifying Color Correction > Printing with ICC Profiles (Specifying an ICC Profile from the Application Software) is this information correct or will your driver not work this way.


Doyle
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Wayne Fox

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CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2009, 06:58:47 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Maybe you can describe this fix a bit more clearly - How does one reset the cache?

Edmund


I've recommended this document to a few users trying to solve SL printer problems, and I know it helped a couple of them.

http://www.epson.co.uk/Printers-and-All-In...;articleId=1975

After removing all the Epson drivers and resetting the Mac OS X printing system as described in the document, I also recommend you navigate to "MacintoshHD/Library/Caches/" and if there is an Epson folder there, delete it.  Restart, empty the trash and then download and reinstall the latest drivers.

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DonCone

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« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2009, 10:43:47 pm »

Quote from: SimonS
This issue definitely effects Canon printers, and probably HP printers as well.  Because of the nature of the cause of the problem I believe it has the potential to effect all printers - and that there can be no exceptions.

There seems to be a new (but related) issue with X-Rite's ColorMunki (profiling tool) which renders it incapable of printing targets for profiling without colour management under Mac OSX 10.6.2.  See this, and related links:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39727

Simon, I wonder if anyone has compiled a list of printers that are affected. After 4 days of testing I can tell you that it is possible to print perfect targets on the Epson 3800 from Eye-One Match, CS4 and Preview 5. Also the same thing on another 3800 printing with v1.1.1 in ColorMunki. In CS4 it is as simple as using "Printer Manages Color" as the "Epson controls color" is the default option in "Color Matching". And, Eric's workaround does not work on these printers. The 3800s are using driver v6.11. Clearly, there is something different with this combination of hardware/software.

Don
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2009, 06:39:13 am »

Hi Don.

Early on in this débacle, when I was still in email correspondence with Kevin Connor and Tom Attix of Adobe, I asked if - as a result of the testing they were doing, and had done - they would send me, or publish, a list of printers with which it was possible to print accurate targets without colour management.  This, along with information about the printer driver and the version, and iteration of OSX - and any other relevant details.

This they have not done, despite repeated and polite requests.

It is reasonable to surmise, therefore, that they have been unable to find a sufficiently robust workaround with CS4, and that this effects ALL printers.

I am interested in your workaround.  I recall that when I tried it with OSX 10.4.11 (Tiger) the targets were printed with some patches clipped (patches with different colours were printed identically*) and thus were not suitable for profiling.  I will, however, try it again to be absolutely sure.
* I used a target printed from PS CS2 as a benchmark.

The problem with diagnosing this particular problem is that it is necessary to do the tests extremely meticulously, carefully documenting what settings are used, and use a known benchmark print to compare results with.  Some correspondents on this website have clearly not done this and their results, and comments, only muddy the water - unfortunately (I am not suggesting for one moment that you are one of these).

The whole situation is an awful mess !  This is much is clear.
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