Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Down

Author Topic: CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets  (Read 49389 times)

Doyle Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2009, 10:58:45 am »

Quote from: MarkDS
- it is not insignificant, it is a generic function in its own right which deserves to work properly, the same can be said of any other outstanding problems affecting the cohesiveness of the print path between the concerned softwares, and I can't believe these glitches would be unavoidable, if only the companies concerned would make it their business to achieve a higher level of co-operation in the interest of the consumers of their products. This discussion reinforces my interest in how they can be exercised to do this, so going forward the pain can be largely avoided.

Does Apple have this where they won't it, that is the big question? Are Adobe and the printers (drivers) still chasing a moving.

Does Adobe really understand what is going on. With the release of the LR3 beta with the driver once again being forcing to ColorSync instead of no CM, it appears not. Even though LR2 and PSCS4 work correctly, at least with Canon iPF drivers.

With printers (drivers) who knows. I my case Canon has been very responsive, even getting calls back from higher ups on there printing issues. Is Epson responsive to complaints?

With every new update, be it OS, Apps, Drivers one has to keep their fingers crossed, or do what I do and always keep backups and test partitions to test these on.

Will 10.6.2 change things? Unanswered question that not only we the end user have, but I bet Adobe and the Printers have the same question.

What will CS5 bring? Will Indesign, Illustrator and Acrobat have to use the new printing path in CS5? Will the final release of Lightroom be fixed? I hope so since this is the exact same thing as what happen with 2.3RC and 2.3FR.

Doyle
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2009, 11:16:25 am »

From my experience both Epson and Adobe ARE very responsive to complaints. I have no experience with Apple so I can't offer a view about them. But all these questions you are raising - perhaps examples of the kinds of things which the companies should be cohering on before we even need to ask about it.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Photo Op

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 194
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2009, 02:24:52 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
This one problem, I’d fully agree. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by the article and number of posts here on this one issue (it shows this site has some pretty advanced users). But this is not the only problem printing. We’ve seen issues where hitting print sent the job into outer space and never to the printer. We’ve seen a problem with Advanced B&W where one has to use Adobe RGB (1998), we’ve seen issues with a small area of red in color space would band etc.

I agree that this one issue, printing targets isn’t a hill worth dying on. But there’s a history of printing issues with the key players discussed here (who I’ll simply refer to as AAE <g>).

Andrew-could not agree with you more. I wanted to pen a reply to Wayne indicating pretty much the same feeling. THIS issue of printing profiles may be as small as he indicated, BUT the issues with printing thru AAE is one large bucket of fish. Thank God, the profile issue happened to someone like Mark. Does anyone really think the issue would have been addressed by so many "players" where it not he that pursued it. No disrespect intended, but the most informative (and refreshing) part of this thread has been your and JS's input. I realize neither of you "work" for AAE, but I suspect there is a relationship that could be strained by the intensity of the comments. As one of the resident peans, I appreciate your frank input and hope you guys will continue to carry the water for the rest of us.
Logged
David

Simon J.A. Simpson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 492
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2009, 07:07:17 am »

A Little Light

May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?

I too have encountered this problem, but with Canon printers (sorry DYP).  I have posted on this topic giving a warning both on this site and the Adobe Photoshop Mac site.  I have also been spending a considerable amount of time trying to get answers out of Apple, Adobe, and Canon - with a variety of success.

By far the most helpful have been Adobe US, with Canon UK ranking last for ignoring my letters and then completely misunderstanding the problem.  Apple are just plain paranoid.

With Adobe I am in email correspondence with Kevin Connor who has been most helpful (does this mean I got the ‘stones’ then ?!).

Apologies for probably restating what Jeff Shewe and Eric Chan have already said in other forums and posts.
Adobe tell me that Apple have provided new printing APIs (probably from Tiger onwards) and that the new APIs require every file sent for printing to have a profile of some sort attached.  Photoshop CS4 (and possibly other CS4 applications ?) implement these new APIs.
The problem arises when Photoshop CS4 sends a file for printing which has no profile attached to it, like targets for colour profiling.  Eric Chan’s brilliant, but devious, workaround clearly confirms to Adobe’s statement be true.

This obviously begs the question (which others have also asked): how therefore do Apple expect users to profile devices when it is not possible to print without colour management ?
I have asked Apple this question.
Apple Europe came back with the answer “We cannot answer your question or help you with the issue you have identified”.  When I asked why they said “For business reasons.”.  However, one splendid person (who has to remain anonymous) suggested posting the issue as a bug on the Developers’ website.  I have done this and received two contradictory replies which I am not allowed to tell you since they are covered by a non-disclosure agreement.  I can tell you that they don’t really take us any further forward.  I have asked Apple if I can reveal their reply since it is clearly in their interests to do so.  I await an answer and will post it as soon as I am allowed to.

My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management.  It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue.  I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue.  The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.

However asking, and answering, the following questions may give us some guidance as to where the problem lies and who therefore needs to fix it.  Apologies, as this may add more fuel to the fire.

1.   How many applications, and which, are effected by this problem ?
Currently we know of only one, Adobe Photoshop CS4.  It appears, that other applications and profiling software, such as ColorMunki, are not effected.  But we need more testing to be sure.

2.   How many iterations of Mac OSX are effected ?
Evidence from the internet strongly suggests that it effects Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard alike.  It may be that the old printing APIs have been disabled/discontinued in Snow Leopard but there is no clear evidence for this yet.

3.   Which printer models and makes are effected ?
Again, from the internet, it appears that Epson and Canon printers definitely are effected (DYP hold off from posting a reply for a minute and read the rest of this).  Also possibly HP, but the evidence is scanty.  It would not be unreasonable to conclude that all printers are effected but more testing is required.
There is some confusion about the extent to which the printer driver may have an influence on whether this problem is manifest or not.  May I draw to everyone’s attention that there is a crucial difference between trying to print untagged (no profile) files without colour management and trying to print tagged files without colour management.  In the former case, and with CS4, it will fail as ColorSync will try to impose some form of colour management.  I know that DYP may be itching to reply to this, but consider this fact first - that Canon provide software specifically for printing targets for profiling on the Mac, the ‘Color Management Tool Pro’.  Could this be because they recognise this problem is, perhaps, unrelated to the driver and so have provided their own workaround ?

I hope this helps clarify things.  Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 07:10:25 am by SimonS »
Logged

Doyle Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2009, 07:12:12 am »

The only thing I will ask is which Canon Printer, what driver version?

Doyle
Logged

madmanchan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2115
    • Web
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2009, 10:08:26 am »

Simon, yes, the concerns are well stated. As Mark mentioned in the article, the problem is tricky because it depends on the printer model, driver version, and OS version, among possibly other factors.

CS4 is probably one of the few Mac non-Apple apps that has switched over to using the new Apple print APIs (at Apple's strong, repeated request). This is necessary going forward, e.g., to have any chance at all for a 64-bit Photoshop, and other reasons. (The old print APIs simply do not exist for 64-bit apps on the Mac.) By contrast, smaller and more specialized apps (e.g., the software that comes with profiling packages) are likely using the older print API routines (similar to what CS2 and CS3 did), which would explain why they are not affected. There is generally not a need for such apps to, say, be 64-bit compatible, or take advantage of other new OS features (hardware acceleration). On the other hand, they will probably no longer work in a future OS update, when the old deprecated print APIs disappear for good.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:09:06 am by madmanchan »
Logged
Eric Chan

na goodman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 418
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2009, 02:10:54 pm »

Quote from: SimonS
A Little Light

May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?

I too have encountered this problem, but with Canon printers (sorry DYP).  I have posted on this topic giving a warning both on this site and the Adobe Photoshop Mac site.  I have also been spending a considerable amount of time trying to get answers out of Apple, Adobe, and Canon - with a variety of success.

By far the most helpful have been Adobe US, with Canon UK ranking last for ignoring my letters and then completely misunderstanding the problem.  Apple are just plain paranoid.

With Adobe I am in email correspondence with Kevin Connor who has been most helpful (does this mean I got the ‘stones’ then ?!).

Apologies for probably restating what Jeff Shewe and Eric Chan have already said in other forums and posts.
Adobe tell me that Apple have provided new printing APIs (probably from Tiger onwards) and that the new APIs require every file sent for printing to have a profile of some sort attached.  Photoshop CS4 (and possibly other CS4 applications ?) implement these new APIs.
The problem arises when Photoshop CS4 sends a file for printing which has no profile attached to it, like targets for colour profiling.  Eric Chan’s brilliant, but devious, workaround clearly confirms to Adobe’s statement be true.

This obviously begs the question (which others have also asked): how therefore do Apple expect users to profile devices when it is not possible to print without colour management ?
I have asked Apple this question.
Apple Europe came back with the answer “We cannot answer your question or help you with the issue you have identified”.  When I asked why they said “For business reasons.”.  However, one splendid person (who has to remain anonymous) suggested posting the issue as a bug on the Developers’ website.  I have done this and received two contradictory replies which I am not allowed to tell you since they are covered by a non-disclosure agreement.  I can tell you that they don’t really take us any further forward.  I have asked Apple if I can reveal their reply since it is clearly in their interests to do so.  I await an answer and will post it as soon as I am allowed to.

My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management.  It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue.  I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue.  The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.

However asking, and answering, the following questions may give us some guidance as to where the problem lies and who therefore needs to fix it.  Apologies, as this may add more fuel to the fire.

1.   How many applications, and which, are effected by this problem ?
Currently we know of only one, Adobe Photoshop CS4.  It appears, that other applications and profiling software, such as ColorMunki, are not effected.  But we need more testing to be sure.

2.   How many iterations of Mac OSX are effected ?
Evidence from the internet strongly suggests that it effects Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard alike.  It may be that the old printing APIs have been disabled/discontinued in Snow Leopard but there is no clear evidence for this yet.

3.   Which printer models and makes are effected ?
Again, from the internet, it appears that Epson and Canon printers definitely are effected (DYP hold off from posting a reply for a minute and read the rest of this).  Also possibly HP, but the evidence is scanty.  It would not be unreasonable to conclude that all printers are effected but more testing is required.
There is some confusion about the extent to which the printer driver may have an influence on whether this problem is manifest or not.  May I draw to everyone’s attention that there is a crucial difference between trying to print untagged (no profile) files without colour management and trying to print tagged files without colour management.  In the former case, and with CS4, it will fail as ColorSync will try to impose some form of colour management.  I know that DYP may be itching to reply to this, but consider this fact first - that Canon provide software specifically for printing targets for profiling on the Mac, the ‘Color Management Tool Pro’.  Could this be because they recognise this problem is, perhaps, unrelated to the driver and so have provided their own workaround ?

I hope this helps clarify things.  Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).
This does effect other applications like PSE6 for the Mac. This link is from Sept. 2008 and if you go to the bottom you will see a response from Adobe Amsterdam. I encountered this problem over a year ago when helping a client that was using PSE6. http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...93&tstart=0
Logged

Doyle Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2009, 02:50:54 pm »

Quote from: na goodman
This does effect other applications like PSE6 for the Mac. This link is from Sept. 2008 and if you go to the bottom you will see a response from Adobe Amsterdam. I encountered this problem over a year ago when helping a client that was using PSE6. http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...93&tstart=0

Anything that is going through the new print path is prone to this problem if the App, OS, Printer Drivers do not communicate properly. Or keep up with what still appears to be a moving target.

Just a reminder, there is always the ColorSync Utility Workaround, that we used for this problem pre LR1.4, but the CUW will not work for printing profiling targets.

Doyle
Logged

djoy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2009, 06:03:31 pm »

This thread has been quiet for a few days now....

I just got fed 10.6.2 update, which claims to fix a few problems judging by the release notes, but no mention of anything Colorsync. Having said that, it's quite possible a fix might go through without notification. Anyone in a position to test 10.6.2 able to verify any or no changes to the issue?

I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?
Logged

Doyle Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2009, 08:27:09 pm »

Quote from: djoy
This thread has been quiet for a few days now....

I just got fed 10.6.2 update, which claims to fix a few problems judging by the release notes, but no mention of anything Colorsync. Having said that, it's quite possible a fix might go through without notification. Anyone in a position to test 10.6.2 able to verify any or no changes to the issue?

I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?

It does appear to fix the RGB printing issue with Indesign where the monitor profile was introduced into the printflow unless Print as Bitmap was selected.

As for PSCS4 and LR2.5 everything still seems to work correctly with drivers that are correctly written for Apple's new printing path. Hopefully Apple now has this where they want it so that it is no longer a moving target for the Application and Printer software developers.

Doyle
Logged

Simon J.A. Simpson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 492
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2009, 04:44:11 am »

Quote from: djoy
This thread has been quiet for a few days now
I'm wondering if Mark has had a response from Apple yet?

Also Simon is still waiting for a response for Apple.

I have also asked Apple to clarify whether the 'old' printing APIs have been withdrawn in Snow Tiger, thus removing the ability to print without Colour Management and, if not, whether Apple have any plans to remove them in a future iteration or update of Mac OSX.

Don't anyone hold your breath, though ...
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2009, 05:08:57 am »

Quote from: SimonS
A Little Light

May I shine a little light into the darkness and confusion ?
My conversations with Apple, and to a degree with Adobe, confirm that there is a general lack of understanding of the necessity to print without colour management.  It is highly likely that the ColorSync engineers at Apple simply do not understand the importance of this issue.  I do not agree with Wayne that this is a minor, and minority, issue.  The ability to profile devices and media is key to being able to use colour management.

I hope this helps clarify things.  Apologies if it hasn’t (retires to a safe distance just in case).

I can assure you that the Apple ColorSync engineers I spoke to are well aware of the issue, have been aware of it for a year, and understand the *necessity *to print without colour management at least as well as anyone else. That doesn't mean they can get much done about this within the structure of the enterprise.

It's also pretty obvious that Eric is doing everything he can to solve the issue, but Adobe has been less than active about sending someone from the Photoshop or Lightroom team to the ICC meetings, at least the ones I attended (I'm two meetings out of sync). Strangely, the moving-picture branch of Adobe is red-hot on profiles. Inkjet printing issues were well known - however they were hitting everyone except Adobe (I was told in private that PS and LR were the only apps that could still make it work on Mac at one point)  and one wonders whether that didn't suit them just well, until it ended up biting them too.

As for Xrite, everyone treats them like sh*t and refuses to give them the time of day; they are the biggest goldfish in the teeny profiling pond. The current industry model is the customer shoudl go and buy calibration tools from Xrite and then somehow bolt them onto the display and print path, calibrate things and make the bits and pieces work together. However if the hooks for profiling(Xrite) aren't there then the whole edifice just collapses. If Xrite turned into a open hardware company things would be ok because calibration and gamut mapping could then be a "feature" of the OS or the individual apps, but as long as industry partners see them as part competitors they will keep inadvertently breaking their software. Small vendors like Xrite die if they have to run the treadmill without cooperation, and keep desperately updating products while  upstream changes keep breaking them. And each time a user cannot use the Xrite stuff easily the whole color management chain of that user breaks.

The engineers at all these places are nice guys, and all of them know there jobs very well indeed. But the companies' attitudes and ability to play together are not so great. BTW - seen any open Raw file formats from Nikon or Canon ?

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 05:28:23 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2009, 09:07:50 am »

Quote from: eronald
It's also pretty obvious that Eric is doing everything he can to solve the issue, but Adobe has been less than active about sending someone from the Photoshop or Lightroom team to the ICC meetings, at least the ones I attended (I'm two meetings out of sync). Strangely, the moving-picture branch of Adobe is red-hot on profiles.
Edmund
Adobe just announced a 10% layoff in staff.  One has to wonder what the impact will be on Photoshop/Lightroom versus other Adobe products.
Logged

Desmond

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2009, 10:43:12 am »

I followed many of the posts but still unable to figure out a question, IS THE PROBLEM happening only to printing targets untagged using PS/ LR? Because I printed target from Datacolor Syder 3 Print SR on Snow Leopard and didn't notice any problem.

One thing Wayne said I cannot agree more is the problem is not bothering too many among the Mac users. The head of graphic department of my office (an architect firm) just told me today that it is normal the prints on glossy paper come back from a output are normally noticeably darker and with colour different from what they see on the screen. I didn't dare to ask if he know what is colour management.
Logged
Regards,

Desmond

na goodman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 418
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2009, 11:33:55 am »

I am on Leopard using CS4 and have never been able to print my targets out of Spyder 3 Print. They have always been off due to not being able to turn color management off. This was also confirmed by Datacolor over a year ago to me. Whether using the i1 or Datacolor I have to print my targets out of CS3 and then read them. All profiles work properly in CS4. It is only when trying to turn color management off to print the targets in CS4 that the problem arises.
Logged

Desmond

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2009, 08:02:27 am »

Looked at Amadou's blog about the workaround again, now I know what I missed. Fortunately in the EPSON driver, in my Leopard and Snow Leopard era, the default is Epson colour controls but not Colorsync under the color matching, so I had no problem printing the target straight from Spyder 3 print by just choosing No color management in the color mode. In fact I'd never touched the color matching before yesterday.
Logged
Regards,

Desmond

na goodman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 418
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2009, 10:01:59 am »

Under Color Matching Color Sync is checked but greyed out and epson color controls is unchecked and greyed out. Like I said printing out of CS3 is the easiest fix for me right now.
Logged

djoy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2009, 06:50:26 pm »

Quote from: djoy
I read also somewhere in the last week or so ( I think it was the release notes for i1Match 3.6.3 for OS-X ) that Colorsync on Snow Leopard does not work with v4 ICC profiles.

I knew I'd read it somewhere....

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=5082

X-Rite claim Apple is aware and are working on it. I wonder if this was included in 10.6.2?

I wonder also if we'll ever hear anything about these issues from Apple themselves, I'm rather disappointed with their apparent lack of response.

Whilst it's been stated this affects only the printing of targets, and not actual prints using ICC profiles, I have to be honest, my confidence in printing from my Mac is severely dented, I honestly don't know if I trust it anymore.  

Incidentally, ProfileMaker 5.0.10 released for Mac.
Logged

Doyle Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2009, 09:59:47 pm »

Quote from: djoy
I knew I'd read it somewhere....

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx...;SupportID=5082

X-Rite claim Apple is aware and are working on it. I wonder if this was included in 10.6.2?

I wonder also if we'll ever hear anything about these issues from Apple themselves, I'm rather disappointed with their apparent lack of response.

Whilst it's been stated this affects only the printing of targets, and not actual prints using ICC profiles, I have to be honest, my confidence in printing from my Mac is severely dented, I honestly don't know if I trust it anymore.  

Incidentally, ProfileMaker 5.0.10 released for Mac.

That statement by Xrite is a bunch of bull. May be their software has a problem with SL and version 4 profiles. But SL does not have a problem with version 4 profiles, printer or monitor!

In fact I just went back and looked at a scanner profile I created on 11/11 with i1Match version 3.6.2 on 10.6.2 and it is a version 4 profile and works correctly.

Doyle
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 10:08:35 pm by DYP »
Logged

adamlogan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
CS4/Leopard fix for printing targets
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2009, 12:33:30 pm »

I have been using Eric Chan's workaround this quarter in the lab at my school. There are 3 wide format printers here I am trying to establish profiles for as a side project in my wide format graphics course. The printers include Epson Stylus Pro 7600, 7900 & 9800. As far as I can tell the workaround works fine in printing the test target, but in order to print images via Photoshop you would have to convert or assign the printer profile to the document profile to keep colorsync from interfering. If you convert the profile whites are no longer pure IE RGB 255. If you assign the profile the whites issue is resolved, but then you are no longer honoring the original document colorspace. Have to be careful not to save while working with the converted or assigned profile for printing purposes. This seems really unsatisfactory to me. For now my impression is that life would be much simpler to just print with cs3/2. Can always flatten psd files to a png or tiff if you are bent on using CS4. I am a newcomer to color management, so if something I said here is wrong please correct me gently.

I am considering experimenting with printing from a virtual machine. I use VirtualBox, it can access and use the host hardware such as usb devices. It might be possible to use windows or a linux distro in a virtual machine to bypass colorsync completely.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Up