which is best: view camera vs ts-e lens vs 17mm + photoshop

[asf]

Kirk and Rainer beat me to it, but there is no reason for the 1ds3, the 5d2 is actually preferable. 14bit vs 16bit is another fallacy that won't die.

And if you go Alpa (I use the Max) there are many expensive accs you will need, compounding the price difference. The adapter for the digital back alone is $1100, add in a dongle for $1300, stitch adapter for $350, a minimum of a 2nd lens for another $3500. I have 4 lenses for my Alpa system, it's not really enough.

Have you used these systems? If you want to get an MFDB you should go right ahead, but unless money is not a concern for you it's better to know what you're getting into before dropping a minimum of $20k on a basic one lens Alpa/Leaf setup as opposed to less than half that for a 4 lens Canon setup. Or recommending others do the same.

I started using the 5d2 as backup/long lens/above 100asa addition to the Alpa/Leaf and have come to realize just how good and versatile it is.

Also: The levels on the Alpa are fantastic, but the shoe level I use on the Canon works perfectly well. The larger pixels on my Leaf back are a nightmare of moire in some situations, Canon has smaller pixels and an AA filter and no moire (I don't understand how you can say the Canon is just as susceptible).You have half a point about shifting on both axes, but it's only more convenient on the Alpa, I can and do shift in both axes on the Canon.

[JonRoemer]

Lets look at two options for a system.

For about $8500 you can get a:
Canon 1D, 21 mp recording at 14 bits per channel, 10.5 stop range
the new Canon 24 ts

For around $16,000 you can get a:
Alpa 12max
Schneider 35mm
Leaf Aptus II 5, 22 mp recoding at 16 bits per channel, 12 stop range (and unlike Phase One's entry level backs, this one still has a large sensor)

Rainer and ASF beat me to it....

I had written (but ran out mid-post):

Neither of those setups is a "system."  Both of those setups are kits in my view.  The difference being that what you listed above is fine if you are doing work for yourself and only have yourself to please.  But neither cuts it if you are doing professional work and have clients to answer to.

As asf pointed out yesterday, the true cost differential is a minimum 3-4x more for a digital medium format based system as compared to a dslr system.

--

What you do is up to you but for people reading the thread having a true sense of costs, trade-offs, and other issues is preferable.

[rainer_v]

Kirk and Rainer beat me to it, but there is no reason for the 1ds3, the 5d2 is actually preferable. 14bit vs 16bit is another fallacy that won't die.

And if you go Alpa (I use the Max) there are many expensive accs you will need, compounding the price difference. The adapter for the digital back alone is $1100, add in a dongle for $1300, stitch adapter for $350, a minimum of a 2nd lens for another $3500. I have 4 lenses for my Alpa system, it's not really enough.

Have you used these systems? If you want to get an MFDB you should go right ahead, but unless money is not a concern for you it's better to know what you're getting into before dropping a minimum of $20k on a basic one lens Alpa/Leaf setup as opposed to less than half that for a 4 lens Canon setup. Or recommending others do the same.

I started using the 5d2 as backup/long lens/above 100asa addition to the Alpa/Leaf and have come to realize just how good and versatile it is.

exactly the same hapens to me at this moment.
although my beginning in digital was with 35mm too ( with kodak slr and canon 1ds ), at a time where the 24xl already did not exist and so no real wide angle for mf. at that time i mixed digital 35mm with 4x5" film work. than came a long break, using mf nearly exclusive except for details and super wide shots, but now the 35mm thing again looks very attractive, and for the first time as stand alone system  too.


.

[JeffKohn]

For about $8500 you can get a:
Canon 1D, 21 mp recording at 14 bits per channel, 10.5 stop range
the new Canon 24 ts

For around $16,000 you can get a:
Alpa 12max
Schneider 35mm
Leaf Aptus II 5, 22 mp recoding at 16 bits per channel, 12 stop range (and unlike Phase One's entry level backs, this one still has a large sensor)

Isn't that Leaf back using the same sensor that was in the entry-level Mamiya from a couple years back? That wasn't exactly a highly-regarded sensor. Not only is it not a true 16-bit sensor, but it's far less versatile than today's DSLR's with regard to ISO range, frame rate, not to mention the lack of live-view. Some might consider the lack of AA filter an advantage, but not me. A 22mp 36x48mm sensor is not only going to have issues with moire but also edge aliasing and color aliasing. Even the D3x seems like a bargain in comparison, all things considered.

[asf]

Sorry, this is another rumor like 14bit vs 16bit that won't die.

The Aptus 22 is nothing like the Zd

There was a thread about that recently too

[JoeKitchen]

Sorry, this is another rumor like 14bit vs 16bit that won't die.

The Aptus 22 is nothing like the Zd

There was a thread about that recently too

14 and 16 are the same?  This is the first time that I have heard this.  Would not 14 bit have 16,384 level and 16 have 65,536?  I am sorry, but I am a math man and get side tracked looking at the numbers sometimes.  

Now I do have a Canon system and that is how I am shooting right now and I have used a MF system on occasion, and money is a concern, and I am not looking to get just one lens (I through that out there as an example).  I kind of miss spoke before with where I was.  Now It just happens that the Canon system annoys me, not so much the tech, but the camera itself.  I learned photography off of a view camera but when I went into professional photography two years ago I did not have the capital to purchase a MF system, film did make any sense to continue to use (and I so wish I had access to a darkroom), and then the economy dropped out.  I would get along with it much better if they have spirit levels in the camera; getting the camera level and completely vertical drives me nuts.  Never thought of getting a shoe level; get that at Home Depot?  Now as the economy is starting to recover, the amount of work I am getting is picking up and MF systems are looking with in range, especially considering the lower end leaf back.  For one just starting to come into the medium, the canon and ts lenses are the best alternative, but for me, I feel that it would be better to put the capital in a MF system instead of the new generation of ts lenses.  I have never had an issue with morie in MF with my limited use, so it seems I am wrong there.  Will have to look into that more.  

Also, concerning the 17 ts, I feel that it is too wide and I never work that wide.  There are many photographers who are much more experienced then I and much more popular that do not go that wide either.  I just do not like working with the large angle of view for the problems you run into with stretching and limited use.  I do not think that investment is worth it for me.  Now when going to MF, I do anticipate getting a 28 mmn but not a 23 for the same reason.

P.S., I really need to stop posting to this topic; it appears to pi**ing a lot a people off.

[CBarrett]

14 and 16 are the same?  This is the first time that I have heard this.  Would not 14 bit have 16,384 level and 16 have 65,536?  I am sorry, but I am a math man and get side tracked looking at the numbers sometimes.  

Now I do have a Canon system and that is how I am shooting right now and I have used a MF system on occasion, and money is a concern, and I am not looking to get just one lens (I through that out there as an example).  I kind of miss spoke before with where I was.  Now It just happens that the Canon system annoys me, not so much the tech, but the camera itself.  I learned photography off of a view camera but when I went into professional photography two years ago I did not have the capital to purchase a MF system, film did make any sense to continue to use (and I so wish I had access to a darkroom), and then the economy dropped out.  I would get along with it much better if they have spirit levels in the camera; getting the camera level and completely vertical drives me nuts.  Never thought of getting a shoe level; get that at Home Depot?  Now as the economy is starting to recover, the amount of work I am getting is picking up and MF systems are looking with in range, especially considering the lower end leaf back.  For one just starting to come into the medium, the canon and ts lenses are the best alternative, but for me, I feel that it would be better to put the capital in a MF system instead of the new generation of ts lenses.  I have never had an issue with morie in MF with my limited use, so it seems I am wrong there.  Will have to look into that more.  

Also, concerning the 17 ts, I feel that it is too wide and I never work that wide.  There are many photographers who are much more experienced then I and much more popular that do not go that wide either.  I just do not like working with the large angle of view for the problems you run into with stretching and limited use.  I do not think that investment is worth it for me.  Now when going to MF, I do anticipate getting a 28 mmn but not a 23 for the same reason.

Joe, I wouldn't trust those hot shoe mount bubble levels... there's so much slop in the mount and who's to say the hotshoe is perpendicular to the sensor anyway?  I carry a small "torpedo" level and just place that across the front of the lens, whether dslr or 645 to get plumb, for level I count on grid focus screens.

-C

[asf]

Level:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1123..._Flash_Hot.html

I have 3 of these and use with 2 Canons. No slop and they are aligned with the sensors.

As for 14bit and 16bit, your numbers are right, unless those last 2 levels are empty, which is the case here.

Math exists in its own universe. Ours isn't so perfect. We have salesmen and advertising, and the internet which loves to perpetuate rumors and false info.

You don't have to take my word for it - ask some of the scientists here (Panopeeper where are you?), or ThierryH who was the Sinar rep for a long time, or Rainer who developed the ArTec and the sinar software workflow (with Brumbaer), or call Rick Adshead at Leaf, or do you own research ...

Sounds like you want to go MFDB. Good choice, do it. Go Alpa and Leaf. I have them and they are the best. But right now if I had to give up one system I wouldn't think twice.

[Kirk Gittings]

Joe, I wouldn't trust those hot shoe mount bubble levels... there's so much slop in the mount and who's to say the hotshoe is perpendicular to the sensor anyway?  I carry a small "torpedo" level and just place that across the front of the lens, whether dslr or 645 to get plumb, for level I count on grid focus screens.

-C

I AGREE-the shoe is not square. I carry the bubble level in the shoe but use it by holding it against the viewing screen (with some black masking tape on the side which contacts the view screen to avoid scratches). There are a couple of advantages here. One-the viewing screen has proven to me to be parallel to the sensor (at least on the 5D and 5DII). Two-the bubble level is small, cheap and conveniently carried in the shoe. And three and most important, when shooting at twilight, the image on the screen provides enough illumination to read the bubble.

[JeffKohn]

Sorry, this is another rumor like 14bit vs 16bit that won't die.

The Aptus 22 is nothing like the Zd

There was a thread about that recently too

I'm not sure what thread you're referring to, got a link? Some of the supporting electronics may be different (I never said the backs were the same, just the sensor). But it was my understanding that Kodak stopped making a 22mp sensor quite a while ago, only Dalsa still had one so it pretty much had to be the same as the sensor in the Mamiya (I may have it backwards on who stopped making their 22mp part and who didn't, I can't remember). At the very least, the sensor design is a generation or two old.

Now I'm not saying the Leaf Aptus II 5 is junk but I am questioning just how much better than the D3x or 1Ds3/5DII it really is, especially considering all the compromises that come with these backs as far as ergonomics and versatility. At base ISO, the image quality may be better if you can live with the artifacts that comes with not having an AA sensor with such large photosites.

I am glad to see more DB's breaking the 10K barrier though. Maybe eventually we'll have a semi-affordable back with good pixel density and live-view.

[JeffKohn]

I'm not sure what's more amazing about those hot-shoe bubble levels: that companies like Hama have the nerve to charge over $30 for them, or that photographers actually pay over $30 for them. Talk about the most over-priced photographic accessory that doesn't have 'Leica' in the brand name. A while back there was a link on another site to a place where you could order those same levels for 4 or 5 bucks (sorry, I don't have the link anymore or know if they're still available). But like others mentioned, I found them not to be 100% reliable.

That said there are other ways of getting the camera level without having to upgrade to a view camera. Some Nikon DSLR's have a leveling function built in that is pretty accurate. And lots of ballhead and quick-release clamps have bubble levels in them.

[Kirk Gittings]

I don't think I have ever paid more than like 8 bucks for a bubble level and if you use them the way I suggest they work fine (that is not relying on the level foot and camera shoe).

[Kirk Gittings]

If you want a higher tech solution than the bubble level (not necessary IMO KISS) see this short discussion on the ZigView from my blog:
Assignment Notes-leveling the camera

[JeffKohn]

If you want a higher tech solution than the bubble level (not necessary IMO KISS) see this short discussion on the ZigView from my blog:
Assignment Notes-leveling the camera

Yeah it seems kinda overkill; the calibration is nice, but having yet another device to worry about batteries for is not.

Now if there were a device that could be used to help get the camera parallel to a subject that might be something to consider, as that can often be more difficult than getting the camera level.

[Dick Roadnight]

The larger pixels on my Leaf back are a nightmare of moire in some situations, Canon has smaller pixels and an AA filter and no moire (I don't understand how you can say the Canon is just as susceptible).You have half a point about shifting on both axes, but it's only more convenient on the Alpa, I can and do shift in both axes on the Canon.

If Moire is a concern, you may consider Hasselblad see my post (# 32) on:

Moire & Phocus

[Huib]

If you want a higher tech solution than the bubble level (not necessary IMO KISS) see this short discussion on the ZigView from my blog:
Assignment Notes-leveling the camera

For accurate fast leveling I really like mine Multiflex head which seems to be a clone of the much more expensive Arca Swiss C1 Cube.
More expensive but very fine to use.

[rethmeier]

That's what I use.
The Multiflex is excellent.
http://www.photoclam.com/
About $950 USD

N.B My Rolex is real!

[JoeKitchen]

Thanks all for the level suggestions, and I will not pay that much for a level Kirk.  Those levels supplied by camera shops are more over priced then the old lens board, a piece of metal with a hole drilled in it.  And I would love to see the math and fractals on how they work the empty bit space on MF backs; any sites that explains that in detail.  Not that I do not believe you, just as a person who studied math in college, I would be interested in seeing the fractals.  

Also, I did research the Aptus II 5 more and it appears that it does use a sensor at least one generation old.  I looked at a couple of test images Leaf has on there website and it appears to have good image quality in the are that are in focus, but when you get into the areas out of focus, some noise starts to appear; I do not have leaf software and ran it through Adobe Raw.  With that said, I still prefer the view camera, not because of the tech, but because of the camera itself.

[Kirk Gittings]

That's what I use.
The Multiflex is excellent.
http://www.photoclam.com/
About $950 USD

N.B My Rolex is real!

I've used a Bogen 410 geared head for years. Does everything I need and handles my 4x5 too=but costs just $219. 410

[asf]

Thanks all for the level suggestions, and I will not pay that much for a level Kirk.  Those levels supplied by camera shops are more over priced then the old lens board, a piece of metal with a hole drilled in it.

When you get your Alpa you can have a nice discussion with them about how overpriced the back adapters are, and why their mounted lenses are more expensive than anyone else's. Or with Leaf about the price of the dongle, the batteries, the charger, their FW cables and sync cords ... Or with parent company Phase about their Value Added packages ...