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Author Topic: Is This The End Game?  (Read 25079 times)

Ray

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« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2005, 10:30:20 pm »

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So one would need to apply a bit of blurring to the image and decrease the contrast to make it more film like?
I don't think one would need to apply blurring. Jonathan has already stated that he applied mid-tone sharpening. Maybe less mid-tone sharpening would help. As regards contrast, I see an unnatural lack of detail in some of the highlights of the white grid pattern on the girl's dress. It's like a dress that has its own illumination. But as I said, I accept the fact that Jonathan has just exaggerated an effect to make a point.

In any case, I'm looking at this (a jpeg image) on a medium priced LCD monitor. I'm just talking about general impressions.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2005, 10:07:49 am »

Mark,

I don't disagree with you at all. I wrote the very same thing above "To what extend this will be visible remains to be proven".

I was just trying to clarify a misunderstanding based on a confusion between the words "information" and "resolution". Probably pointless, but hey... I don't have much to do in my hotel room tonight.

Regards,
Bernard

p.s.: for the sake of clarification, I don't consider myself an expert on imaging theory neither, but my comments never were about image theory in the first place.

Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2005, 11:30:43 am »

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That word "natural".  

Is it being used in relation to what one sees in the real world?  

Or is "natural" what one is used to seeing when using a more familiar technology (film prints)?
I'm using it to describe what one sees or hears in the real world without any technological intermediaries such as cameras or speakers. I suspect that Dr. Leping tends toward the other usage.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2005, 11:02:25 pm »

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No, it is relevant; Foveon sensors generate 3x the data of a Bayer sensor with the same pixel count, but not 3x the actual image information. So the gap between data and information is wider with a Foveon sensor than a Bayer sensor; a Foveon sensor outputs 300% of the data of a Bayer sensor, but only 130% (approximately) of the actual image information. That is why a Foveon sensor will output more detailed images than a Bayer sensor with the same pixel count, but they're not three times better than the Bayer image. As processing and interpolation techniques improve this gap will narrow, but never quite close.
Jonathan,

I would love to get pointers from you showing theoretical demonstration of your claims.

Regards,
Bernard

jcarlin

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« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2005, 10:41:54 am »

MarkDS,
   Here is the quick low down, the de-mossaicing algorithms make the assumption that color is not likely to change very quickly, and to the degree that it does change it will look like a smooth transition from one color pixel to the next.  Lets look at an example of three values representing GRG and guess at what the green value would be for the R pixel.

120-60-110

Well we could guess that the R pixel has green value of 115, we might be wrong, but chances are that we're not far off.  The algorithms that are used in RAW converters and digital cameras are more complicated, and beyond the scope of this thread.  Here is a link were you can learn more

http://www-ise.stanford.edu/~tingchen/

The effect that this will have on sharpness, or apparent sharpness is that it will make dramatic edge transitions less dramatic as well as smoothing over micro detail.  In most cases the detail loss is minor, and the appent loss of detail (what you and I can see) is trivial, but no doubt somebody somewhere will say they can see the difference.  If you want to try and see the difference take a look at

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd10/page15.asp

and the subsequent pages.  In some places you can see an improvement, but in other places the foveon sensor looks worse.  Not to different to the way that any two cameras perform under review.

John
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2005, 02:34:05 am »

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The only part that of which I am not 100% convinced yet, but I am not saying that you are wrong, just that you didn't convince me yet () is the part where you are seemingly saying that the first 2 editions of a 16 bit RAW converted file (resulting, for the sake of discussion, in the loss of 2 bits each) will only damage artificially created data that was not present as information in the 12 bits RAW file in the first place.
It's a combination of logic and information theory. Information theory proves that your average Bayer RAW file has no more than 8 bits per pixel of non-redundant (image information + sensor noise information). This is a necessary corollary of the observable lossless compressibility of RAW files. The articles I cited early go into the math behind that deeper than either of us will probably care to go, especially the PDF.

So we have 8 bits or less per pixel of actual image information going into the RAW conversion process, which is hiding in 12 bits of RAW data. That data goes into the RAW converter, which expands the 12-bit RAW to 48-bit RGB. We've agreed that no new information is created by this process, and we've also agreed that editing operations destroy low-order, least significant bits first. So the only remaining issue is where those "real" bits are hiding in the output of the RAW converter.

In the vast majority of cases, RAW conversion is done in such a manner that the range of output values are fairly well-distributed between minimum and maximum. You are correct in asserting that the "real" bits are not simply the highest-order data bits like you would get with simple zero-bit padding, but are cleverly spread around where they will do the most good. But that doesn't mean you'll ever find them in the lowest-order bits or the RGB data, as you would have to do a really extreme levels adjustment to get them anywhere close. Let's say you did a levels adjustment where the output scaled from 0 to 7 in Photoshop's dialog. That would vacate the 5 highest-order bits of any real image information and replace those bits with zeroes, moving the image data to less-significant bits. Instead of real image data living somewhere in bits 9-16 of a given color channel, now it's been relocated to bits 4-11, and bits 12-16 have been filled with zeroes. At this point, we still have 3 low-order bits left to bear the brunt of the entropic losses. But that is an absurdly extreme example; I've never done that, and if I did, I wouldn't care if a few low-order real bits got munched, because those pixels have already been relegated to extreme shadows, and you're going to need a really good printer and custom profile combination to get any detail other than featureless black out of that anyway.

But in any normal scenario where the brightest highlights are (8-bit scaled) level 128 or greater, then the most significant bits of real image information must be somewhere in the most significant bits of the RGB color channels. It is not possible to "split" the bits of real information into noncontiguous groups in a single color channel; they come off the sensor together, and remain that way in the RGB data. If 8 bits of real image information starts at bit 16 in the RGB data, it can't go to bit 12 and stop, be interspersed with some guesswork bits, and then pick up again at  bit 6 and continue down to bit 3. We've already established that a Bayer RAW doesn't contain enough information to precisely define all 48 RGB bits, therefore if the highlights are greater than (8-bit scaled) 127, then the real image information has to be contained somewhere in the topmost 8 bits of the RGB color channels. That means that the lowest-order bits have to be some combination of guesswork and garbage.
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Tibor22

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« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2005, 02:59:04 pm »

I would imagine that sensors can at least double the number of megapixels from what we have today (35mmF from ~16mp to >30mp and MF from ~40mp to >80mp) before the laws of physics step in and end it.

I worked for a mini-computer company in the 1980's and their 1 mb memory board was 17" square! and contained approx 100 IC's. Now we have 1gb SODIMM's.

I realize that this is apples vs oranges. But you just can't underestimate future (next 2 - 5 Yrs) technology.
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ijrwest

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« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2005, 05:21:27 pm »

I think Bernard has a good point about image manipulation causing a loss of 'real' information. It's not about rounding errors in floating point arithmetic. Suppose you take a picture of a test chart using a 12mp camera ( say a 1Ds ) and a 3mp camera ( say a D30 ). Now downsample the 1Ds image 2:1 to make a 3mp image. Then subtract this from the D30 image. What we have is then an 'error image' for the D30. You could measure this magnitude of the error as the standard deviation of the difference over all the pixels.

Now apply your image manipulations to the D30 image to make it 'better' and check the error again. I think Bernard is saying the error gets bigger, even though the image might look better.

Iain West
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billh

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« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2005, 08:59:01 pm »

“but my guess is that the P45 will push even the superb Zeiss lenses on a Contax to their limits.”

Michael, How do these lenses compare to the Leica lenses (and for that matter, to my Zeiss lenses for the Rollei 6008)? This digital business fascinates me, but it doesn’t seem as simple to comprehend as in the old days where an image quality boost from a new higher resolution film or lens was readily understandable. A friend came over to shoot some lens tests because he is interested in both a new Leica lens I have, and a 1Ds2. We used a variety of Canon lenses (all primes) and Leica lenses on the 1Ds2, and it appears the sensor is the limiting factor here (at least in the series we did), with a resolution of 50+ line pairs (definitely less than 60 LP). The 1Ds2 resolution was a good bit higher than my 1D2 resolution. The film resolves higher still, but a print of the photographed resolution charts is far sharper from the digital camera. I know you see the 22MP medium format quality racheted up a notch over the 1Ds2 - this is the same, or similar to the old days with 35mm and medium format, and not because the 22MP Phase One sensor has higher resolution than the 1Ds2 sensor - or is it both larger and higher resolving? I assume, as the sensor size from a company remains the same, but the MP count increases, that resolution increases too? I’ll bet you a buck you end up with the new 39MP wonder! It is just as hard to resist as better lenses were in the old days. It is also a tad more costly than trying a newly issued film....
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billh

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« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2005, 10:18:54 am »

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/shootout.shtml

That is exactly what I see from the digital cameras, but I’m curious about the digital resolution - where it may go (idle curiosity) and how MP relates to resolution. When we photographed the resolution charts, we saw 50+ lp from the 1Ds2, and 25 - maybe up to 30 lp from the 8MP 1D2. However I read reports saying the 6.1 MP sensor in the Epson RD-1 shows 40+ LP resolution (I hate paying $3000 for a 6MP camera which by all reports is prone to a variety of problems, but I would love to have a small camera I could carry and use my M lenses on). In the past you could use a fine grained film with x resolution, and try different developers and development methods to achieve an intensification of the light-to-dark transition lines (edge sharpness). What now - simply employ more MP, or does pixel size, etc. come into play when we talk about resolution and ultimate image quality? Is the smaller 12MP Nikon sensor capable of higher resolution than the 16.6 MP 1Ds2?

He has some interesting comments about digital resolution:

Part 1:
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/japan/epsonrd1/epsonrd1.html

Part 2:
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/japan/epsonrd1/epsonrd1B.html

http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c007.html

“At 50 lp/mm, close to the resolution limit of the 1Ds”
Where do you find this information? I don’t have my 1Ds anymore, but using the Canon 35 f1.4, 85 f1.2, 135 f2.0, 180 f3.5 Macro, 300 f2.8IS, and Leica (via adapters) 50 f1.4 and 180 f2.0 (my favorite) lens, I see 50, or maybe a touch more line pair per mm. The 8 MP 1D2 was a lot lower, and I remember when I first began using it, I missed the resolution from my 1Ds. What is the resolution of the 1Ds2? And, if 50+ LP is the max resolution figure, are the current lenses not only good enough, but does this mean that any lens capable of, say 60 lp resolution, going to work equally well (subtleties aside) on the 1Ds2?

What is the resolution of the Canon 16.6 MP sensor, and the Phase One 22 and 39 MP sensors?
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ddolde

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« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2005, 06:00:35 pm »

Clark's figures are seriously inflated.  He claims you need 31 mp just to match 645.  That's hooey.

My Kodak 16mp back easily outperforms 6x6 scanned film. Not just in resolution but in dynamic range, ease of use, and general image quality.

And pleeeze....Ken Rockwell reviews cameras he has never even held.  He is not to be taken seriously.  (Sorry Ken)
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jani

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« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2005, 08:42:29 am »

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Each grain of silver in a fine grain film is 1 to 2 microns in size, while a digital sensor may be 5-8 microns. One would assume from this that film can outresolve digital.

But, any individual grain can either be on or off, black or white. It takes 30-40 grains in a random clump to properly reproduce a normal tonal range. On the other hand each individual pixel can record a full tonal range by itself.

This reminds me of another similar argument about the resolution of PPI on-screen versus (raster-based) DPI on paper.

People who didn't think things through, claimed that there were no monitors capable of matching the color visuals of a 600 DPI printing press. Yet the printing press in question was a rasterized CMYK process, and the screen in question was the IBM 22" flat panel with over 200 PPI and 16.7M tonal range per pixel.

It was a stupid argument to begin with; the processes are so fundamentally different. And the same goes for film vs. digital.

Quote
It always amazes me when people defend theoretical positions which are clearly contradicted by reality. Working photographers with experienced eyes know what they are seeing, and so do their hyper-critical clients who are paying the bills. When somone tells them that the evidence of their eyes is wrong, all one can do is smile and shake ones head. The sad part though is when people who don't have the direct personal experience to contradict the theorecticians are intimidated into believing them.
My take on this is that those theoretical positions are - to put it in a all-too polite way - incomplete, and therefore irrelevant even for theoretical use.

Those "theoreticians" aren't worth their salt, and shouldn't pose as experts on a subject matter they clearly haven't studied well enough.

This goes for me, too, when I'm out of line. :cool:
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Jan

BobMcCarthy

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« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2005, 03:26:46 pm »

It's a moot point when the A to D conversion (scanning) is such a weak link , when the popular method of printmaking today is an inkjet printer (D to A device).

Of course the opposite is true when projecting transparencies vs digital projection.

FWIW,

Bob
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2005, 06:51:28 pm »

Bernard,

Interesting that you mention the Fuji S3; I was at a magazine shop on the way back from the gym this afternoon and was browsing a French digital imaging magazine (forget the name) where they reported test results they had conducted on the Canon 1Ds-2, the Nikon 1Ds and the Fuji S3; in all three of the sets of test images they did for color rendition, sharpness and luminosity the Fuji S3 came out on top. For two of the tests the differences were visible in the magazine images. They used the same Sigma lens on all three cameras. They thought the camera body was lacking in some respects - I didn't read all the detail - but their comments on the quality of the sensor are indeed interesting. It is, however, only 6 MP, so regardless of the quality it would put some constraint on image size, especially with cropping. But the technological direction indeed looks promising from what that review article was saying and showing.
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Ray

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« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2005, 10:13:26 pm »

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Resolution in a Bayer sensor is perhaps not 3 times lower, but the information captured is without any possible doubt 3 times less.
Bernard,
I think the statement might have been true if you'd used the word 'data' instead of information. A 3 megapixel Foveon sensor has 9 million collection points. A 3 megapixel Bayer type array has 3 million collection points. The interpolative algorithms of the Bayer sensor go some way to reducing the gap so that a Foveon type sensor with 3x the photodetectors has approximately 1.4x the resolution, rather than the expected 1.7x. (Oops! ie. square root of 3x).
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samirkharusi

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« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2005, 01:32:36 am »

I recently made a few prints between 3 ft wide and 6ft wide from a 1Ds. Laughable that I would have even contemplated doing that from film. And where were all you res buffs when Kodak discontinued Ektar 25? IMHO that's the only color fim that approached the creamy skies of digital, and it also resolved close to 200 lp/mm, reputedly the highest-resolution color film ever mass-produced. Yet, today, I still prefer a 1Ds print to an Ektar 25 print. I suspect that's because the old lenses were simply not as sharp as the current lenses. We always seem to come back to lenses, at this point in time. Today's common lenses are probably very well served by 20 megapixel sensors. Nevertheless it is possible, today, to make diffraction-limited f8 lenses, at least in the longer focal lengths. I used to use one in my research work way back in 1970. Such a lens would justify a 35mm-format array having between 100 and 200 megapixels. I really do not see much of an end-game any time soon, the initial topic of this thread. Such a sensor+lens would be able to produce prints, very likely, superior to today's 4x5 film cameras. Will it stop there? Not IMHO. Because soon thereafter somebody will come up with lenses that are diffraction-limited at f5.6... We also seem to prefer larger and larger prints as the years pass, because technology makes them affordable. So the pros will keep on striving for ever larger prints from smaller and smaller cameras. I bet Captain Kirk can take a gigapixel+ image with a handheld camera  :p
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2005, 09:52:14 am »

That word "natural".  

Is it being used in relation to what one sees in the real world?  

Or is "natural" what one is used to seeing when using a more familiar technology (film prints)?
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2005, 07:10:47 pm »

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That's where the quibbling starts to crop up; information and data are not quite the same thing. Data can contain information, but if there is less information than data, tha data can be compressed down to approximately the size of the actual information it contains.
Jonathan,

You are correct, but this distinction isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand, is it? The same gap between data and information will theoretically be present on Foveon and Bayer sensors, right?

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2005, 09:47:00 pm »

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No, my analogy is accurate as-is. When you manipulate an image, the rounding errors and entropic losses are introduced in the least significant bits, and gradually work their way into the more significant bits as one performs more edits to the image data. The whole point of 16-bit editing is to keep the rounding errors and other entropic reductions in the bits that are made-up anyway, so losing some of them does not compromise the actual information.

Another way of looking at it: if you edit a 16-bit image to the point that only every eighth level is populated, you have invalidated or lost the least significant 3 bits of image data (2^3 = 8). If you continue editing until only every 32nd level is populated, you have now invalidated or lost the least significant 5 bits (2^5 = 32). Since the true image information is contained in the most significant bits of the image data, you have to lose/invalidate approximately 7 bits worth of image data (toothcombing the histogram so that only every 128th level is populated) before you start corrupting or losing any of the real image information. That's pretty tough to do; a sensible workflow (convert RAW, adjust levels/curves, moderate color tweaks, and sharpen) is only going to introduce 1-3 bits of entropy losses (maximum toothcombing of the histogram to every eighth level or so), which still leaves you at least 3-4 bits worth of buffer between the real image information and the entropic garbage.

Digital audio editing works the same way; it is common to record with either a 16 or 24-bit DAC, pad the data with zeroes to make it 32-bit, edit, and then downsample to 16 bits for the final output. If done correctly, the error of greatest magnitude in the final output data will arise from rounding to the nearest 16-bit value. All of the entropic losses and rounding errors introduced during editing are buried in the least significant 4-8 bits of the data bits that are thrown away anyway. The rounding error inherent to downsampling to 16-bit audio is far greater in magnitude, but is still acceptable because the 16-bit audio format is good enough, and is still the best it can possibly be.
Jonathan,

Interesting discussion, thank you for the feedback.

Just a confirmation. I assume that you call "real image information" the most significant 8 bits based on the assumption that both display and print are 8 bits devices?

Besides, one question. When a 12 bits RAW image is converted into a 16 bits tiff, my understanding is that a mapping was performed so that the max value in 12 bits (11111111 1111) becomes the max value in 16 bits (11111111 11111111). One could think that this would leave 4 bits of un-used values throughout the range, but my understanding is that this is mostly not the case since:

- the demozaiquing is basically an averaging process whose ouput does benefit from the additional set of values existing in 16 bits compared to the 12 bits input,
- the gamma application,
- ...

-> the result of the RAW conversion is probably most of the time a fully populated 16 bits file, not just a file whose 12 bits are populated, and then zeros added.

Do you agree with this?

Although I agree with you that the least significant bits will be affected first, those do contain useful image information if my understanding of the 12 -> 16 bits mapping is correct. I agree with you that the impact of these least significant bits is by definition very small, but IMHO actual image information will be lost even when working in a 16 bits mapping of an image generated by a 12 bits sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2005, 10:32:14 am »

Quote
I sense that concepts of bit depth, image compression and demosaic algorythms are being comingled - I can see the relevance of bit depth and data compression in a discussion about apparent resolution (i.e. printed image detail), but with today's advanced algorythms for demosaic-ing color data it is less clear to me how this impacts on apparent resolution.
Mark,

It would appear to my un-informed ears that the lossless compressibility of an image is not by itself a proof of the existence of a gap between data and actual information. It can result from the legitimate presence of patterns or uniform areas in an image.

The compressibility is therefore also not enough of a proof that the demosaicing algorythms are bad (or good) at extracting real colors and at delivering an image that has a resolution close to the theoretical limit achievable by a perfect sensor.

To summarize, compressibility can be related, but by itself contains no indication in one sense or another.

I am sure that Jonathan and John will provide their view on this too.

Regards,
Bernard
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