M9 Review Discussion

[pschefz]

It's pretty much impossible to put the differences into words, in terms of simple resolution the results I get with my P65+ and a tripod mounted 120mm Macro are so far beyond what the M9 can deliver that there's simply no competition. However, versus Canon the results are far less clear cut. My current travel camera is a 5D MkII with the 24-105 IS. It delivers dependably great results out to the edges at f8 and f11, but corner quality is poor at any aperture, and at f4 or f5.6 I'm often a little disappointed right across the frame, consequently getting the results I want from the 24-105 requires taking liberties with the IS and using the ISO setting aggressively!

The M9 just provides more options at lower weight, but with the inconvenience of lens changes on the fly. Overall I prefer the look and feel of an M9 shot, it tends to have less of that "processed" digital feel (ie distant grass turning to uniformly coloured astro-turf!) or a slightly "smeared" look. Then there's the prime versus zoom question, as a huge generality (that's I'm sure more respected in the breach than the observance) zooms deliver outstanding definition in the central part of the frame, and perform well in both the near and far ranges. But the usual downside is poor performance out towards the edges and an intrusively "wirey" look to the out of focus areas. Hey, who's to say what's better, you pay's your money and you takes your choice!

i am not surprised that the 24-105 will give you smeared results....even the 24-70 has no real chance compared to pretty much any canon prime....and compared to leica primes....there is no contest....

i have been looking at m9 raw files and so far have not found the P21 look i was hoping for.....the files look a little sharper (as is to be expected) then canon files,  but by far not the obvious difference between the m8 and the 5D.....high iso looks better then expected (for a ccd)....pretty good up to 1000, but no comparison to the canons or nikons....

i have not seen a good DR comparison, leica is saying that the high iso will be imrpoved with firmware and the conversion profiles are still not quite "there" (or so the leica fanatics say....)

i was really hoping for a m camera with a DMF look....but this does not seem to be it....and we will probably never see one....if i had the cash to just buy one for fun, i might, but 7000 is a lot.....

in a way this really showed me how amazing the 5dII is and how really amazing the files are that come out of it....and the 7d looks amazing as well....the combination of the 2 (with some other advancements i haven't even thought of yet) will be on the market in less then a year.....for about a 1/3 of the price of the m9....it is just hard to justify on any level....

i think the m9 looks like a great camera and i am sure it will make a lot of people very happy....and it really looks like leica did their homework this time.....

as much as i love RF....it is not worth that much to me.....

also: there are still SOME issues with IR (and UV as well?) and there are some corrections in software going on....some superwides still show cyan shifts and such.....much, much,much less then the m8....much improved....but still....

and then you just pick up the canon and shoot.....without any problems at all....

[woof75]

i am not surprised that the 24-105 will give you smeared results....even the 24-70 has no real chance compared to pretty much any canon prime....and compared to leica primes....there is no contest....

i have been looking at m9 raw files and so far have not found the P21 look i was hoping for.....the files look a little sharper (as is to be expected) then canon files,  but by far not the obvious difference between the m8 and the 5D.....high iso looks better then expected (for a ccd)....pretty good up to 1000, but no comparison to the canons or nikons....

i have not seen a good DR comparison, leica is saying that the high iso will be imrpoved with firmware and the conversion profiles are still not quite "there" (or so the leica fanatics say....)

i was really hoping for a m camera with a DMF look....but this does not seem to be it....and we will probably never see one....if i had the cash to just buy one for fun, i might, but 7000 is a lot.....

in a way this really showed me how amazing the 5dII is and how really amazing the files are that come out of it....and the 7d looks amazing as well....the combination of the 2 (with some other advancements i haven't even thought of yet) will be on the market in less then a year.....for about a 1/3 of the price of the m9....it is just hard to justify on any level....

i think the m9 looks like a great camera and i am sure it will make a lot of people very happy....and it really looks like leica did their homework this time.....

as much as i love RF....it is not worth that much to me.....

also: there are still SOME issues with IR (and UV as well?) and there are some corrections in software going on....some superwides still show cyan shifts and such.....much, much,much less then the m8....much improved....but still....

and then you just pick up the canon and shoot.....without any problems at all....

I may buy one from amazon, shoot a few frames every shot with it and return it, have a good look at the files and prints from the files and see if it's "there". I'm still hopeful.

[TMARK]

I may buy one from amazon, shoot a few frames every shot with it and return it, have a good look at the files and prints from the files and see if it's "there". I'm still hopeful.

Please post here when and if you get to test an M9.  I have the same concerns.

[woof75]

Please post here when and if you get to test an M9.  I have the same concerns.

Certainly will, don't hold your breath though, it'll be a few weeks.

[gguida]

Just watched the interview with Stephan Daniel. I can't believe how open and candid Mr Daniel is, it is unique in the business (or any business). For example the change from C1 to Lightroom was just to avoid Phase One getting the whole list of S2 clients as they registered their software... He is also pretty open about Jenoptik's involvement: "the S2 is made by Leica and the M9 by Jenoptik...". Also "we started the M9 development April last year". It is not often that you get that sort of insight. Some of the sales numbers are very interesting and worth spending the time to watch the video "we can't supply all the M7 and MP ordered". Note that the candid approach stopped when the interviewers started talking about Panasonic. Leica is obviously not entirely comfortable with the collaboration.. Really fascinating stuff.

As for the M9 itself, if you were born before the 80's, you'll just want one and getting one or not will just be a budget issue (I'm negotiating with my banker...). The M8 was not quite right but the M9 is a proper digital M7 so if you've sniffed enough darkroom chemicals in your time, now you can move on. To me, the most interesting part is that ongoing lens development suggests Leica has very long term plans for the rangefinder range. That is odd as their appeal to the younger generation is pretty much nil and it will not take long before that generation becomes the whole market.

[woof75]

I just had a look at one in adorama and I hate that the frame line isn't a solid line at the bottom, how do you know your not chopping people's hands off, any way of customising that?

[pschefz]

I just had a look at one in adorama and I hate that the frame line isn't a solid line at the bottom, how do you know your not chopping people's hands off, any way of customising that?

the framelines are "guide lines" at best anyway....if you want to make sure the hands are in, take a step back....there are a lot of different factors to consider, i think the frame lines with the m9 are optimized for about 6ft? but i could be wrong....leica fixed the lines with the m8.2, the m8 was a joke....there was just no way to tell because even the lines you saw were totally off....

anyway...i also have one on order from amazon....i might just go to samy's and shoot a couple of frames compared to the 5DII out the window....the more i see and hear about it , the more i am disappointed though....i still haven't heard anything or seen anything concrete about DR performance.....crispness and depth, "3D" look are there but by far not as pronounced (compared to the 5DII) as was the case with the m8/5D comparison....

in other words: my P20 at one point made me VERY happy.....if i compare the files today with the files from the 5DII....color, DR, detail.....the canon wins easily....

[Rob C]

I watched the interview as well and it seemed very open and honest to me.

However, the difficulty with deciding whether it was or was not honest is that it took me all my time to drag my eyes off the camera and watch the guy doing his thing.

Now, I have never owned an M camera because I always figured rf sytems to be flawed for my sort of work, despite the fact that people like Jeanloup Sieff used them to great advantage. But, watching that damn thing sit there on the desk, I realised why I coveted it so much: simplicity. It looked like a camera and not something else. I couldn't lose the thought that it was a camera that would take one right back to the pre-digital age where the camera, once you'd bought it, was something that never crossed your mind during the work - it just was there and did what you wanted it to do, mainly not get in the way. Unfortunately, even in retirement, the thing and its glass are just too expensive - more so in retirement with no business against which to write it - than ever they were.

A very important and probably overlooked point was made by an earlier writer when he said that today's market for these Ms is with the older, experienced people; whence the next generation of buyer and what would create one sans the pulling power of nostalgia which the young can't share?

 A lady at the 'interview' made a remark about refurbished Ms being available to 'students' at lower costs... what an odd idea that a private company (often short of cash) could take up that notion and subsidise a section of the community! Why? It seems to me that subsidies do little but propagate the wrong ideas about life's realities. Leica's guy didn't make that mistake when talking about your first 911! (I say yours because I ain't got one.)

Rob C

[woof75]

the framelines are "guide lines" at best anyway....if you want to make sure the hands are in, take a step back....there are a lot of different factors to consider, i think the frame lines with the m9 are optimized for about 6ft? but i could be wrong....leica fixed the lines with the m8.2, the m8 was a joke....there was just no way to tell because even the lines you saw were totally off....

anyway...i also have one on order from amazon....i might just go to samy's and shoot a couple of frames compared to the 5DII out the window....the more i see and hear about it , the more i am disappointed though....i still haven't heard anything or seen anything concrete about DR performance.....crispness and depth, "3D" look are there but by far not as pronounced (compared to the 5DII) as was the case with the m8/5D comparison....

in other words: my P20 at one point made me VERY happy.....if i compare the files today with the files from the 5DII....color, DR, detail.....the canon wins easily....

Suprised to hear that about the P20, have you tried reprocessing the raw files in the latest capture one?

[Gary Ferguson]

IHowever, this morning using the Zeiss ZM 35mm 2.8 manually coded as a 35mm 2.0, I noticed some strange artifacts. In the far distance the girders and wire of a crane were rendered blue or yellow on the viewing screen at full magnification, instead of black silhouttes against the sky. Similarly the white framework of a window (again at the edge of resolution) were also rendered yellow or blue. As this shot was nearby I repeated the shot at all apertures from f2.8 to f22. Interestingly at f2.8 the effect was very much reduced, and at f22 it was gone completely, but at all other apertures it was present and most strongly at the highest resolving apertures of f5.6 to f11.

I wonder if this is moire related, a function of the camera viewing screen, or possibly due to "approximate" manual coding?

Loaded the shots into Lightroom and the artifacts have gone, clean as a whistle, the "moire" look was only on the M9's viewing screen. Looking carefully through a couple of hundred M9 shots I can't see a single example of moire...yet! But as that's using a mix of tripod and handled; wide apertures and stopped down; fabrics, buildings, and trees; daylight and artificial light; I'm starting to conclude that the lack of an AA filter isn't compromising the camera's abilities.

Incidentally, leaving work tonight I saw John Lennon's Rolls Royce in the car park I use. With fading light and a sleazy Soho in the background it was perfect rangefinder territory! Here's the scene with the M9.

[attachment=16591:Lennon__s_RR.jpg]

[JonasYip]

I look forward to reports from early adopters as they start to put the camera to use. Regardless, I sense an M9 in my future. Of course, since I already have a pile of Leica and other M-mount lenses the expense is a little more "reasonable". Maybe.

[wolfnowl]

I may buy one from amazon, shoot a few frames every shot with it and return it, have a good look at the files and prints from the files and see if it's "there". I'm still hopeful.

Depending on where you live, wouldn't it be simpler to walk into a camera store with a flash card, make a few images and then take the card home?  The clerk at any reputable store wouldn't have a problem with that, knowing that you'll come back to them if you do decide to buy one.

Mike.

[wolfnowl]

i think the frame lines with the m9 are optimized for about 6ft?

I believe he said the lines are optimized for one metre, about 3.2808 feet.  It was 2 metres for the M8

Mike.

[gguida]

Just finished the Peter Karbe interview. Slooow, but, again, so candid "er.. we mixed up the MTF graphs..". I am very impressed and it makes Leica a very likeable company, miles from what I imagined. I am getting more and more revolted by the consumable aspect of our tools which are manufactured by drones and must be thrown away after a short, marketing-defined lifespan. This is definitely the opposite, a company that creates timeless products. The M8 is now obsolete but its owners can feel safe in having made an investment that can follow them for decades. Hasselblad used to be like this but I doubt H2 owners felt the same when the H3 came out. Again, I can see an M9 in my future but, unfortunately, can't see much of a future for the M series. Maybe Leica, or another manufacturer (Panasonic?), can make a modern digital body to lengthen the fantastic M lenses usefulness but I don't see the new generation putting up with the rangefinder when modern focusing is measured in tenth of millimetres..

The S2 of course, is the opposite. This is a camera open to the future and which begs to be updated regularly. Maybe that's why it's the product Leica decided to nurture in-house.

[woof75]

Depending on where you live, wouldn't it be simpler to walk into a camera store with a flash card, make a few images and then take the card home?  The clerk at any reputable store wouldn't have a problem with that, knowing that you'll come back to them if you do decide to buy one.

Mike.

I need to test it with my light on my type of subjects though.

[OldRoy]

I'm following the discussions on this product with great interest but little likelihood of ever owning a Leica - although I'd love to try an M9 - and no axe to grind whatsoever, but I was very impressed by the observation below, taken from one of the preceding posts.

"This is definitely the opposite, a company that creates timeless products. The M8 is now obsolete but its owners can feel safe in having made an investment that can follow them for decades."  (my emphasis)

Er, quite...

[Ben Rubinstein]

The M9 is the camera that the M8 should have been. Methinks it (M8) will not be in anyway timeless but rather quickly forgotten and pushed under the carpet.

[Misirlou]

The M9 is the camera that the M8 should have been. Methinks it (M8) will not be in anyway timeless but rather quickly forgotten and pushed under the carpet.

I'd be happy to take one of those M8s out from under the carpet as soon as someone shoves one under there.

I still shoot a Lieca IIIf from time to time, although not for important work, admittedly.

[Slough]

I'm following the discussions on this product with great interest but little likelihood of ever owning a Leica - although I'd love to try an M9 - and no axe to grind whatsoever, but I was very impressed by the observation below, taken from one of the preceding posts.

"This is definitely the opposite, a company that creates timeless products. The M8 is now obsolete but its owners can feel safe in having made an investment that can follow them for decades."  (my emphasis)

Er, quite...

Maybe the M8 is obsolete, but the debt collectors follow you for decades ...

They do say that the difference between men and boys is the size of their toys.

[Bartie]

Hi Guys,I`m after a bit of advice.I can feel an M9 purchase just around the corner and was wondering which lens to buy with it.