Frustated P25+ Moire Problems

[Kristian Tjong]

Just an update. I went to my local distributor to discuss my situation. The owner pointed out (as Doug Peterson pointed out to me as well) that all DB exhibit some moire, and he gave me some excellent suggestion to combat the moire problem. Of course, as I knew this already, he defended himself by using the argument that every DB back has moire, and another bunch of reasons. Of course, I can always trade it my back for a new back at a very unbelieveable price (almost at 3/4 for the price of a new back). At that time, I felt like to grab the P25+ back and shoved it into his .... The thing that dissapoint me in this matter is that , personally, I felt that all this problem is b***sh**. If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase? How much time do I have to spend to do the research? Please let me know if anyone who bought the phase one back knew about the moire problem and still purchased the back. I am really sorry for the rant. I felt really hopeless at this moment.

[imagetone]

If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase?

I rented and tested P25+ and P45+ before upgrading an old Phase 11MP back, my dealer was very helpful with this. I was well aware of the moire problem, its the issue that bugs me most and the same kinds of artefactscan occur around other fine details, for example, print and architectural fine detail.  I didn't get the P30+ as I wanted something all purpose that left me with a wide angle option on an H1, its kind of sadly comforting to me to hear some people say all the backs suffer to some degree.  I would not regard the P25+/H kit as a complete solution and I use Nikons too.

I don't shoot clothing or models as much as other stuff with my P25+ but when I do and I see moire I go down the route of two conversions and PS layers described by other people here. I only used the moire removal tool in the old 3.7 Capture One a few times but it seems more sophisticated than the tool in CO4, having the ability to mask colours and stop colours bleeding into each other. Perhaps if more people complain to Phase and ask them to improve the tool in C04 it will be made more useful.

They may not have pointed out that your P25+ may also suffer from green/magenta lens casts which you may notice shooting neutral backgrounds on your MF camera. There are one or two other threads about this.  I was more upset about this than the moire because I felt the marketing was misleading in suggesting this was only an issue with movements on technical cameras. In practice its easier to deal with than moire, using the current Phase software, as it's just a batch correction solely in Capture One.

Tony May

[David Grover / Capture One]

It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.

In Phocus Export, choose 'Layers PSD' and you will automatically be given a PSD file with two layers, one with the correction off and one with the correction on.

Useful if you have to use a strong value.

Attached is a movie showing the After and Before, using the moire tool in Phocus.

Best,


David

[attachment=16348:Moire_Tool.mov]

[Guy Mancuso]

Just an update. I went to my local distributor to discuss my situation. The owner pointed out (as Doug Peterson pointed out to me as well) that all DB exhibit some moire, and he gave me some excellent suggestion to combat the moire problem. Of course, as I knew this already, he defended himself by using the argument that every DB back has moire, and another bunch of reasons. Of course, I can always trade it my back for a new back at a very unbelieveable price (almost at 3/4 for the price of a new back). At that time, I felt like to grab the P25+ back and shoved it into his .... The thing that dissapoint me in this matter is that , personally, I felt that all this problem is b***sh**. If a manufacturer , and, or distributor knew about the problem why don't they disclose the information to the customer. Of course, I am also at fault. I did not do my homework properly, but the question is how do I do the homework properly? I meant how detailed should I do the research before I made my purchase? How much time do I have to spend to do the research? Please let me know if anyone who bought the phase one back knew about the moire problem and still purchased the back. I am really sorry for the rant. I felt really hopeless at this moment.

Sorry to say I did my homework and my dealer CI ( Doug and Company) certainly pointed it out. Plus i tested all 3 backs at the time. P25,P30 and P45+went with the 25 first than decided I wanted the P30+ a year later for other reasons like higher ISO and faster shooting but certainly knew of the Moire and told my buyer the same thing. Reason why you go to a good dealer and not buy by price alone.

[Kristian Tjong]

Sorry to say I did my homework and my dealer CI ( Doug and Company) certainly pointed it out. Plus i tested all 3 backs at the time. P25,P30 and P45+went with the 25 first than decided I wanted the P30+ a year later for other reasons like higher ISO and faster shooting but certainly knew of the Moire and told my buyer the same thing. Reason why you go to a good dealer and not buy by price alone.

Unfortunately, there is only one phase one dealer here. And No, price is not my deciding factor. I can get a substantially better deal on Hassy or Leaf at that moment. I can even get my PhaseOne from the United States a lot cheaper, but no, I bought it here locally because I want the good and honest support. I went with PhaseOne because of the quality. The thing is, your dealer, pointed the problem out, mine did not.

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes and I am not sure on your location and it seems outside the thrust of the market. I feel bad that this was not brought up to you and even when I resold mine it was the first thing I brought up. Although there are some tricks around it and if you see it and even in the LCD you can than just back the focus off a touch and than stop down another stop or so. What is the problem is the focus is so critical at that Nyquist limit you have to defocus it . I shoot a lot of corporate and industrial work and one client is in the Aerospace market and I shoot cockpit display's sometimes and that is what i have to do is back off on the focus but keep the DOF still pretty good to keep it sharp. Works very well actually

[Kristian Tjong]

Thanks for all the support. Feel much better already   . I guess, I'll have to be careful next time.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Thanks for all the support. Feel much better already   . I guess, I'll have to be careful next time.

If it helps even further, I too know about the issue and still use this back.  I guess I don't shoot enough fashion to experience this.  Not yet at least.

In my opinion and observations, the P25 is the sweet spot in the Phase line up.

[Kristian Tjong]

Thanks for the support Phil. I agree with you, P25 is the sweet spot for me too. As I stated before, when I purchased this back, my work involved still life most of the time. The image quality is superb. Unfortunately, the moire problem on certain textures or fabric really ticked me off. The distributor did not point out this problem to me. Should I know about this problem, I would've gotten the P30+ instead (offered at the same price at that moment), which should minimize the moire problem.

[Guy Mancuso]

I really loved the P25+ with the 9 micron sensor there is just something about the look in the files with those big fat pixels. Has a lot of zip to the image. The P30+ is better at moire but you will still get it. Honestly after trying the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor it maybe the best on Moire. For textile shooters maybe the best back for it. In my test it beat the 6.8 sensors on moire, not only that it is really fast to shoot. I'm actually looking at upgrading again to it. Just need to get a nice deal and find a nice friendly bank. LOL

[narikin]

if moire is diminished by smaller sensor cells P25>P45>P65 etc, does that mean the (amateur) cameras with incredibly small sensor cell sizes don't need an AA filter?
does anyone know if canon reduce the strength of the AA filter as the sensor cells get smaller?

[Guy Mancuso]

Moire will always be there and the real issue is this 10,000 to 50000 screaming Canon shooters about moire in there files. Just imagine the PR damage, main reason they stick those stupid things on there plus they get some noise benefit

[Dick Roadnight]

I really loved the P25+ with the 9 micron sensor there is just something about the look in the files with those big fat pixels. Has a lot of zip to the image. The P30+ is better at moire but you will still get it. Honestly after trying the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor it maybe the best on Moire. For textile shooters maybe the best back for it. In my test it beat the 6.8 sensors on moire, not only that it is really fast to shoot. I'm actually looking at upgrading again to it. Just need to get a nice deal and find a nice friendly bank. LOL

The Hasselblad H3D11-60 and the P65+ have 6 micron pixels, and the phocus moire reduction, and the res, it might make the Hasselblad H3D11-60 the perfect camera for textiles.

Error corrected - I had said the the 50 had 5 micron pixels.

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Dick I did not realize the Hassy 50 is 5 microns. I would have to agree from what I saw on the back of the air conditioner I shot the Moire pattern got tighter the lower the Microns. Certainly be easier to correct for sure in or out of Phocus

[Doug Peterson]

The Hasselblad H3D11-60 and the P65+ have 6 micron pixels, but the H3D11-50 has 5 micron pixels... and the phocus moire reduction, and the res, it might make the Hasselblad H3D11-50 the perfect camera for textiles.

That is not correct.

The H3D-50 is 6 microns and therefore has extremely similar moire characteristics as a P65+ or P40+. (Hassy Tech Spec Sheet)

Phocus' and Capture One's moire reduction are extremely similar in quality. Though, always one to give credit where credit is due, the Phocus option to export as layered PSD is genius and saves time over having to export once with and without moire reduction in Capture One. I prefer Capture One in general for nearly innumerable features, but the layered-PSD export is just plain better than C1's options.

Doug

Doug Peterson
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[Guy Mancuso]

Yea I thought it was the same sensor being used in the Leica S2 a Kodak version of the Dalsa 6 micron. Thanks Doug

[Dick Roadnight]

That is not correct.

The H3D-50 is 6 microns and therefore has extremely similar moire characteristics as a P65+ or P40+.
Doug

Thank you for the correction, doug, I should have checked

[Doug Peterson]

Thank you for the correction, doug, I should have checked

No problem. Frankly I kinda wish I didn't have those things memorized. Sometimes I feel like there must be important information I forget because space is being taken up with obscure tech specs.

[bcooter]

Thanks for the support Phil. I agree with you, P25 is the sweet spot for me too. As I stated before, when I purchased this back, my work involved still life most of the time. The image quality is superb. Unfortunately, the moire problem on certain textures or fabric really ticked me off. The distributor did not point out this problem to me. Should I know about this problem, I would've gotten the P30+ instead (offered at the same price at that moment), which should minimize the moire problem.

Kristen, don't look for a ledge or think your alone because everyone who has bought a mfdb thought moire would be a problem that only happens to others, usually to find when it happens to them it's a very difficult thing to fix.

The p30+ will minimize moire vs a 22mpx sensor but it won't go away. All of the non AA filter backs moire and the only way to to stop it is to use those caprock filters, or hand hold, which has slightly more blur and less chance of excactly the same position, or shoot continuous light with slower shutters, which all slightly blurs the image, but 18mpx to 39mpx all backs moire.

Out of all the backs I've owned the 22mpx backs seem to moire the most, but that's a non scientific statement as I rarely shot one medium format back next to the other  and find I've see less moire in the 18mpx p21 vs. the p30+ but that could be I don't use the p21 very often.

If you want to end the moire problems once you are on set, there is only three logical alternatives, either place a digital tech on a computer and have them check every file, with you moving up and down back and forth trying to find a spot where it doesn't show up, shoot the garment close to the same position separately and blend it in post, or buy a Canon and shoot everything that looks problematic with it.

On this board everyone screams about the lost of micro detail if a camera has an AA filter, but the few times I've shot mfdb side by side with a Canon the AD's  liked the look of the Canon because they think it looks more film like (their words, not mine), probably because it doesn't look oversharpened, so as photographers are beating their heads against the wall trying to find that extra 4% of sharpness their clients given the choice probably think most oversharp images look "digital", whatever that means.

If you don't give anyone a comparison nobody knows either way, aa filter, no aa filter, clients just look at the shot, they don't pull out a 20x loupe, so whatever solution you reach make life easy on yourself.


BC

[Phil Indeblanc]

On this board everyone screams about the lost of micro detail if a camera has an AA filter, but the few times I've shot mfdb side by side with a Canon the AD's  liked the look of the Canon because they think it looks more film like (their words, not mine), probably because it doesn't look oversharpened, so as photographers are beating their heads against the wall trying to find that extra 4% of sharpness their clients given the choice probably think most oversharp images look "digital", whatever that means.

If you don't give anyone a comparison nobody knows either way, aa filter, no aa filter, clients just look at the shot, they don't pull out a 20x loupe, so whatever solution you reach make life easy on yourself.


BC

This is where it really makes a difference what you shoot.  If sharpness is not highly critical in your subject matter, there is little to knit pick. If you are doing subjects that require the best of the best, and I am not only talking about enlargments, the sharpness is very important for detail work.