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Author Topic: Mamiya/Phase One 645, System Questions  (Read 2409 times)

Gary Ferguson

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Mamiya/Phase One 645, System Questions
« on: August 24, 2009, 06:49:57 am »

I've recently upgraded my P45+ to a P65+, at the same time I switched from Hasselblad V (which I've used for over thirty years) to the Mamiya/Phase One 645 body (where I have zero experience!).

Overall I'm impressed with the Mamiya/Phase One system and lenses, but I'd like to learn more before investing further into the system. Unfortunately finding answers is proving difficult. I'm not getting much response from Phase One, and unlike Hasselblad V you can't fall back on thorough documentation from the likes of Ernst Wilde or the Zeiss web site.

So I hope someone here can help with the following,

1. I'm very impressed with the digital lens correction facilities for the Phase One lenses in C1, however it recognises some lenses but not others. For example, C1 recognises and beautifully corrects the Phase One 45mm and 80mm lenses, but it only partially recognises the Mamiya 150mm AF 3.5 lens and the Mamiya 300mm AF APO 4.5 lens. It can identify the focal length and shooting aperture on these two, but that's it. No surprises there, I didn't expect anything else and I don't think I'd see much practical advantage from automated digital lens correction on these two particular lenses. However, I'm thinking of buying two other lenses where I would expect to see material gains, the 28mm and the 75-150mm. I can either buy the Phase One versions, or save a great deal of money by buying the Mamiya "D" specification versions. The question is, will C1 recognise the Mamiya "D" 28mm and 75-150mm lenses, and provide the full suite of automated digital lens corrections?

2. Does anyone know if the actual focusing distance is recorded at the moment of exposure and if this is incorporated into the C1 lens correction system? Both Canon and DXO lay great emphasis on the need for focus distance information to accurately correct a lens. I wondered if this is an advantage that Phase One optics have? Or possibly it explains why Phase One emphasise the 16 bit CPU in their lenses and how this facilitates future firmware upgrades, maybe they're planning a future improvement in the quality of C1 digital lens corrections, but this would only be available for Phase One/Mamiya lenses with the 16 bit chip?

3. Sometime ago Phase One announced they were developing a tilt and shift lens. Later they announced a re-badged Hartblei Super-Rotator 45mm under the Phase One brand, at the same time Hartbei withdrew their version of the Mamiya mount 45mm Super Rotator from sale, implying a fairly permanent arrangement with Phase One. Two questions, is this lens an interim offering from Phase One or is this the T&S lens for the forseeable future? And secondly, are there any practical benefits from buying the Phase One version versus simply hunting around for a second-hand Hartblei version?

4. There's some mixed messages regarding shoe mounted flash on the Phase One/Mamiya 645 body. I contacted Metz and they said it's not possible to have TTL/OTF flash control using a digital back because of the different reflectivity of film versus a sensor. So they advised to use the basic Metz adaptor module and the auto or manual settings. Fair enough. However, in the Phase One brochures for another body (I think it's the Contax 645) they say TTL/OTF flash control is possible, all you need to do is set a -2 compensation on the flash exposure, but when it comes to their own camera they're strangely mute, and they haven't answered my question giving a clear answer one way or another. I don't want to waste money buying the Metz Mamiya adaptor module if TTL/OTF isn't possible so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 09:14:02 am by Gary Ferguson »
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Doug Peterson

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Mamiya/Phase One 645, System Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 11:34:49 am »

Quote from: Gary Ferguson
Overall I'm impressed with the Mamiya/Phase One system and lenses, but I'd like to learn more before investing further into the system. Unfortunately finding answers is proving difficult.

Sorry to hear that. Your Phase One dealer should be your source of information on this and should be able to answer all of these questions of the top of their head.

Quote from: Gary Ferguson
1. I'm very impressed with the digital lens correction facilities for the Phase One lenses in C1, however it recognises some lenses but not others. For example, C1 recognises and beautifully corrects the Phase One 45mm and 80mm lenses, but it only partially recognises the Mamiya 150mm AF 3.5 lens and the Mamiya 300mm AF APO 4.5 lens. It can identify the focal length and shooting aperture on these two, but that's it. No surprises there, I didn't expect anything else and I don't think I'd see much practical advantage from automated digital lens correction on these two particular lenses. However, I'm thinking of buying two other lenses where I would expect to see material gains, the 28mm and the 75-150mm. I can either buy the Phase One versions, or save a great deal of money by buying the Mamiya "D" specification versions. The question is, will C1 recognise the Mamiya "D" 28mm and 75-150mm lenses, and provide the full suite of automated digital lens corrections?

First a quick note that C1 lens corrections also have specific corrections for Hassy H, Hassy V, Contax lenses as well as Mamiya/Phase-One lenses. Also ANY lens (including 3rd party lenses and dSLR lenses) can be corrected manually using generic distortion or pincushion distortion correction. It may not be perfect (distortion does not always follow generic distortion geometry) but I'll vouch that it will get you 80-90% there, and for the vast majority of users that means they don't need to include an entire other program in their workflow. I, for instance, have stored a correction for the Canon 24-70mm lens @ 24mm. After loading a wedding I simply "sort by - Focal" and select the 24mm lenses and apply my "24-70 @ 24mm lens" style. It takes me literally 10 seconds per wedding and the result is that the slight wonkiness of that lens at full-wide is no longer visible (it may be scientifically measurable still since the correction is "generic" but no normal client will see it). Another example: many ultra-wides for the Leica M8 for instance, benefit tremendously from the Chromatic Aberration correction.

All that said: the 28mm D is included in the list of supported-today lenses. The 75-150mm D lens is not supported as of today, but chances are very good it will be included soon.

The C1 Lens Corrections are really quite good especially considering they can be incorporated in your normal workflow and take only a few seconds to apply to any/all lenses.


Quote from: Gary Ferguson
2. Does anyone know if the actual focusing distance is recorded at the moment of exposure and if this is incorporated into the C1 lens correction system? Both Canon and DXO lay great emphasis on the need for focus distance information to accurately correct a lens. I wondered if this is an advantage that Phase One optics have? Or possibly it explains why Phase One emphasise the 16 bit CPU in their lenses and how this facilitates future firmware upgrades, maybe they're planning a future improvement in the quality of C1 digital lens corrections, but this would only be available for Phase One/Mamiya lenses with the 16 bit chip?

Focus distance is not shown in Capture One. Hasselblad makes a similar claim about their lens correction. Optically the fact that that focus distance makes a difference is a Truth. However, whether the difference is significant is not something I've seen shown in a real-world-test. For instance both Hassy and Phase make a 39 megapixel back (same sensor) which goes on the Hasselblad H body and can use their HC35mm. I have not seen any evidence of any difference in quality between the lens corrections of the H3DII-39/Phocus and the P45+/C1. Show me that difference and I will start to worry about focus distance.


Quote from: Gary Ferguson
3. Sometime ago Phase One announced they were developing a tilt and shift lens. Later they announced a re-badged Hartblei Super-Rotator 45mm under the Phase One brand, at the same time Hartbei withdrew their version of the Mamiya mount 45mm Super Rotator from sale, implying a fairly permanent arrangement with Phase One. Two questions, is this lens an interim offering from Phase One or is this the T&S lens for the forseeable future? And secondly, are there any practical benefits from buying the Phase One version versus simply hunting around for a second-hand Hartblei version?

The Phase One 45mm T/S lens (an updated version of the original Hartblei) is real. Like any tilt-shift lens in an SLR design it is not as good as using a dedicated tech camera with a simple-lens-design non-retro-focus large format lens such as a Cambo Wide RS with a Schneider 47mm. However, many find it to be a convenient solution which is good-enough. If you're interested in this lens it would be best to speak to your dealer about receiving a unit for testing before completing the purchase to see if it's the right solution for you. Also, like all Phase One lenses we have this lens at 20% off during the month of August.

The original Hartblei had very large sample variation (meaning one Hartblei 45 would be very different in quality from the next). One of the things Phase One did (along with a recoating of the lens elements, adding a Phase One warranty, and a streamlined mechanical redesign) was to pick the best-of-the-best. So unfortunately any original Hartblei which was top-notch is more likely to be jealously hoarded than sold on eBay. Again, the right strategy IMO would be to purchase from a source which will allow you to test it before purchasing (of course I recommend this for most any lens purchase)


Quote from: Gary Ferguson
4. There's some mixed messages regarding shoe mounted flash on the Phase One/Mamiya 645 body. I contacted Metz and they said it's not possible to have TTL/OTF flash control using a digital back because of the different reflectivity of film versus a sensor. So they advised to use the basic Metz adaptor module and the auto or manual settings. Fair enough. However, in the Phase One brochures for another body (I think it's the Contax 645) they say TTL/OTF flash control is possible, all you need to do is set a -2 compensation on the flash exposure, but when it comes to their own camera they're strangely mute, and they haven't answered my question giving a clear answer one way or another. I don't want to waste money buying the Metz Mamiya adaptor module if TTL/OTF isn't possible so any help would be appreciated.

There is no confusion on this amongst well-informed dealers: http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/03/...ium-format-ttl/. In short the SCA 3952 is the answer and allows you to use several Metz flashes (of varying power/price) in full TTL.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 11:35:48 am by dougpetersonci »
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Gary Ferguson

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Mamiya/Phase One 645, System Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 12:56:52 pm »

Doug, I can't thank you enough for such a clear and informative answer. You've completely addressed my questions and provided a lot of additional and valuable information along the way. I'm sure other Mamiya/Phase One users will be equally appreciative of your comprehensive reply.

Best regards,

Gary
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marcs

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Mamiya/Phase One 645, System Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 01:07:21 pm »

On a related note the Alpa 12 Max, tilt adapter and short barrels provide tremendous flexibility for architectural applications with the P65+.

...............
3. Sometime ago Phase One announced they were developing a tilt and shift lens. Later they announced a re-badged Hartblei Super-Rotator 45mm under the Phase One brand, at the same time Hartbei withdrew their version of the Mamiya mount 45mm Super Rotator from sale, implying a fairly permanent arrangement with Phase One. Two questions, is this lens an interim offering from Phase One or is this the T&S lens for the forseeable future? And secondly, are there any practical benefits from buying the Phase One version versus simply hunting around for a second-hand Hartblei version?
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