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Author Topic: Dillema, need some help  (Read 9917 times)

Guy Mancuso

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 02:00:27 pm »

Frank I would just get a AFDII for backup , still relatively cheap but not wanting to jump to far off topic but concern on the AFDIII. I did have a failure myself and it was a power board that went down, I did have a AFD to back me up but I did buy my Phase system through CI and i had a backup AFDIII loaner shipped overnight to me. Now I am not sure about the Mamiya side of things with going that route only with a Leaf back . Obviously these two folks are separate companies sharing the same body so I don't know if your dealer has a loaner system in place and such. I do know here in the states most Phase dealers do have a loaner system in place.
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 02:07:46 pm »

Hi,
I do have several backup bodies that's not the problem, but no AFD.
I own a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII so I can always work that's not the problem, the problem I'm having is not that I cannot work, the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them and that I'm being treated like I'm a customer they would rather loose than have, and indeed seeing the history with that camera and knowing it's my second camera I bought from them and SEVERAL other not cheap stuff like meters, accessories, lenses etc. makes it a principle for me.
And indeed principles are sometimes very bad advisors, but for me very important (and that's my problem ).
Also the fact that indeed I promote the heck out of mamiya on workshops/seminars/DVDs etc. could have given them at least the courtecy to treat me with respect, in the end that's all it boils down to, they just don't care, I told him that I lost the trust in this camera because it's now the second time it broke down and I really wanted them to swap the camera (I was willing to pay extra for their new body that was just released) after that the conversation went wrong with the dealer getting angry (I guess frustations with other customers, because he talked in the THEY form, THEY ALL want loaners and I don't do that).

@Doug,
I wish it was a dealer, but that's the problem I'm not dealing with a dealer but with the Dutch importer.....
When it was a dealer I would contact the importer and tell him to straighten out his dealer.
I'm my own boss for as long as I can remember and am brought up in a family of business owners, customer satisfaction is key for a succesful business, pissing your customers off is a bad idea.

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gwhitf

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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 02:08:32 pm »

The Loaner Program is great Public Relations for these Dealers. No doubt. It looks and sounds great on paper.

But what happens when you show up for a job, and there are eight shots to do during that day, and the body peters out on the second setup? So there you are, it's 10:30am, and your ONLY body is dead in the water. What good does a Loaner Program do for you then? Compare the cost of two backup bodies to the cost of paying all that talent and crew, for the remainder of that shoot day, not to mention the embarrassment in front of the client.

It is a No Brainer. A pro covers his ass -- end of story. Fedex doesn't arrive until 10:30 tomorrow morning with that loaner body -- what are you gonna do with that client until tomorrow morning? Tell jokes, or dance a jig, and entertain them?

I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned. Mancuso reported the same story, and he learned from it. It's not a matter of IF the gear will fail -- it's a matter of when. How much could a used Mamiya body cost? Hell, for that matter, a brand new one? If not, I hope you're a good dancer.

What if the shoe was on the other foot? What if it was a client calling you, and they said, "Hey Doorfhof, we spend a lot of money with you, we forgot about that third and fourth day of shooting that we needed. We only told you about two days. So, since we spend a lot of money with you, and put your Photo Credit in the corner of the ads, can you shoot that third and fourth day for free?" What if you told them no -- is that "bad customer service?". Hell no, it's simply doing business as business should be done.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:12:43 pm by gwhitf »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 02:14:56 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them

Maybe, just maybe, they didn't care about the AFD3 body being in your video for some reason you don't know about...   Like maybe there is a newer body to be released in the very near future?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:23:23 pm by Jack Flesher »
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 02:26:02 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
What if the shoe was on the other foot?


I don't get the free thing.  If I was the distributor and you were calling about a body you'd shot a billion frames through, I'd say, buy another one.

I understand customer service, we all bust our b**ls nowdays, but free, even at loaner rates, naw.

Now this value added dealer loaner thing, is not Free.  It is an extended warranty that costs a lot and honestly has no effect on somebody that is shooting for commerce, unless you happen to be shooting next door to the dealers office.

Also this line about if it was a phase back on a mamiya body life would be better is just bull.  Phase/Mamiya screams to high heaven about their "open" platform, so that makes no difference whatsoever, especially since it was the Mamiya that broke, not the Aptus.

If I was as in love with medium format as you are Frank I'd have two of everything, (I do have two of everything) I mean buying a new aptus 22 is like buying a Nikon D3.  They're falling out of the trees right now.

Still, this is the mess of medium format.   If I can't walk into any city with a population of over 1,000,000 people and buy exactly what I'm using, I don't want to know about it.


B
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Dustbak

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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 02:33:01 pm »

You could try to get your Mamiya support elsewhere outside the Netherlands but I can see your point. When you are a loyal customer and get treated like shit I would not want to have to deal with that party as well. My own clients wouldn't accept a treatment like that from me either.

Having said that.  It is a good policy to have 2 of the same bodies of stuff you are depending on. I have basically 2 of everything including overlapping lenses (I am thinking about getting a second 100 because I use it so often). This is while my dealer is very good to me! I can loan stuff if I need or want to but I don't want to be depending on this.

I ended up with Hasselblad because the local Leaf dealer was less than responsive and I did not want to bring my money to a party that show me it is not even involved in the business in which I am committed
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2009, 02:36:33 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
No matter what anyone says, medium format is slow and difficult.  I don't know why, other than I assume the cameras are based on 12 year old technology and the market is so small that investment is slow and  difficult.

Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.


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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 02:36:55 pm »

@Gwhtif,
You keep going on and on but I think you need to reread my posts....
I DO have a backup, to be complete in need I have three different backup systems including two separate MF solutions.
But that's not the point.
It seems a trend that companies simply don't care for customers any more (or at least over here in the Netherlands it's a trend, not responding to mails, not calling back etc.)
When you do a lot of free stuff for someone like that and you're treated like garbage how would you feel that ?

That's were this whole issue is based upon, not on not being able to continue work, heck I can rent a body if I really need it, when the camera was gone for the firmware upgrade I could also continue to work, because I'm doing a lot of outside stuff at the moment I would rather not drag the RZ with me but use the 5DMKII or a 645 body, in the end it all boils down to the end result and to speak in another photographer on this forums words, it doesn't matter which camera you use as long as you get the job done, and unless all bodies fail on me at the same time I can do my job.

However I don't know what makes you tick but for me trust and mutual respect between customer and client is VERY important.

To give a very simple example, my HDV camera broke down during the pro-imaging this year (display went all green). One of the product managers from Canon heard this and offered to give me a HF10 for the time being as a loaner to play arround with, in the end we bought it and had the Sony repaired so now we have two HDVs, this sets Canon apart and if my 5DMKII would break down and they would not have a loaner because it's not done I could perfectly live with that if I would not have a backup and would buy a backup at that moment (luckely also my DSLR route is covered over the years).
So to make a long story short it's about customer care and that's something I value VERY much.

Also remember that if I would just shoot commercial work I wouldn't care less about dealer support or brand loyalty just buy second hand bodies indeed. But because of the line of work I do I feel that the brands I use get a fair share of exposure and when I shoot in front of a crowd or on a video with something I'm frustated with as hell it shows

But were getting way off topic.
At the moment I'm still talking and thinking and the replies from some people helps me a lot.
I'm not eagerly waiting to spend 10K for a principle so I have to find a way to sell my 645set and ease into another system that I will build up over time and that's why I opened this post, not to complain or to do what I'm doing now.....defending myself.

I don't even want to go into the discussion of dropping MF all to getter, when I look at the files I'm getting and the workflow there's nothing that fits me better, end of story.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:41:21 pm by Frank Doorhof »
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 02:56:05 pm »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.


OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.

But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.

Slower frame rates.

lower usable iso,(much lower).

Single point autofocus.

A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.

Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something).   Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.

The lcd needs a computer to read the image.  You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.

It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.

Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.

Mirror slap without a delay.  I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th.  Big difference.

FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).

No right angle grip.  Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.

No clear direction on what is full frame.  is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".

A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens.  How about just some tilt shift lenses?  

Brown cameras.  How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?  

(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).  

B
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 02:58:01 pm »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Expand 'Slow and Difficult'.


OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.

But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.

Slower frame rates.

lower usable iso,(much lower).

Single point autofocus.

A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.

Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something).   Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.

The lcd needs a computer to read the image.  You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.

It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.

Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.

Mirror slap without a delay.  I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th.  Big difference.

FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).

No right angle grip.  Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.

No clear direction on what is full frame.  is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".

A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens.  How about just some tilt shift lenses?  

Brown cameras.  How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?  

(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).  

Now you've come a long, long, long way since the imacon days, but there are still some basics in medium format that just don't make sense.  

B
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Guy Mancuso

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2009, 02:58:53 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Hi,
I do have several backup bodies that's not the problem, but no AFD.
I own a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII so I can always work that's not the problem, the problem I'm having is not that I cannot work, the problem is that I wanted the 645AFD/III on the video for them and that I'm being treated like I'm a customer they would rather loose than have, and indeed seeing the history with that camera and knowing it's my second camera I bought from them and SEVERAL other not cheap stuff like meters, accessories, lenses etc. makes it a principle for me.
And indeed principles are sometimes very bad advisors, but for me very important (and that's my problem ).
Also the fact that indeed I promote the heck out of mamiya on workshops/seminars/DVDs etc. could have given them at least the courtecy to treat me with respect, in the end that's all it boils down to, they just don't care, I told him that I lost the trust in this camera because it's now the second time it broke down and I really wanted them to swap the camera (I was willing to pay extra for their new body that was just released) after that the conversation went wrong with the dealer getting angry (I guess frustations with other customers, because he talked in the THEY form, THEY ALL want loaners and I don't do that).

@Doug,
I wish it was a dealer, but that's the problem I'm not dealing with a dealer but with the Dutch importer.....
When it was a dealer I would contact the importer and tell him to straighten out his dealer.
I'm my own boss for as long as I can remember and am brought up in a family of business owners, customer satisfaction is key for a succesful business, pissing your customers off is a bad idea.


The issue is more likely that the Dutch importer could care less and understand your frustration. For us in the US it's the same as buying from B&H or a retailer in that category. Something breaks they will not show any love at all. I have been buying from them for well over 30 years and i would be shit out of luck with trying to get a body replaced after two breakdowns , it would have to come from the OEM itself at that point. Regardless of what some may think a dealer network would try to either do a replacement themselves or go in on your benefit to the OEM and push a few buttons to get a replacement. Sure it is no help the day of shooting when something happens but it is having a loaner when yours is out for repair time and having that the next day is nothing to sneeze at when there is another job to do. I like the dealer network and it has paid for itself more than I can express here in many ways. I need something , I get it and I have received lenses faster than any B&H retailer type could get on release as well when buying. Also nothing like calling Doug to save my ass out in the field to trouble shoot a breakdown or a issue. Some don't care about it and some folks do. I like having a hand to grab when I need it. I still buy from B&H on many other items that maybe not as important or critical.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2009, 03:09:38 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
panies simply don't care for customers any more (or at least over here in the Netherlands it's a trend, not responding to mails, not calling back etc.)

I totally agree on this part. My dealer is not located in the Netherlands specifically because of these reasons. With the exception of a few persons most in this industry aren't interested in responding to mails or calling back even before they have your money!

I buy most of my things in Germany, the UK, Belgium or even the US (I rather ship & import).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 03:09:53 pm by Dustbak »
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2009, 04:39:18 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
OK Dave I like you and think you company is on the right track, in fact I think you have a great opportunity to go forward and I've mentioned this before.

But slow and difficult compared to the high end dslrs . . . , ok you asked so here goes.

Slower frame rates.

lower usable iso,(much lower).

Single point autofocus.

A prism that bends the image more than the actual image bends.

Slower lenses (except your 100 F 2 point something).   Even my contax has a 2.0 80mm.

The lcd needs a computer to read the image.  You blad lcd is "better" than most but it ain't up to a $400 P+S.

It took forever for you guys to get your files into Adobe and other third party processors without DNG conversion and another step in the processing chain is slow and difficult.

Shooting to cards requires you ingest using hasselblad software, no drag and drop.

Mirror slap without a delay.  I know the Contax is so 1985, but handhold a contax at a/130th, (I've done it a lot) and handhold an H system at 1/30th.  Big difference.

FW 800 connectors at fw 400 speed (I think, because nobody has actually answered this).

No right angle grip.  Try using your camera for a long 14 hour day all in the vertical position.

No clear direction on what is full frame.  is the current size full frame, is the next one larger than full frame, can you use the 28mm on the next newer and bigger camera and get "full frame".

A tilt shift mechanism that takes light and adds 1.5 to the range of the lens.  How about just some tilt shift lenses?  

Brown cameras.  How many people ask you for a black hasselblad with silver trim?  

(The last one isn't slow, but it is difficult).  

Now you've come a long, long, long way since the imacon days, but there are still some basics in medium format that just don't make sense.  

B

Compliment taken, thankyou.

Slower frame rates agreed.  But do all photographers want 5fps?  For fashion, for sure, but what about many of the other disciplines that do not require.  The H3D for example is not all cameras to all men and the same can be said for a 5D, 1D, D3 and so on.

Lower ISO yes.  Swings and roundabouts again.

Single Point AF.  Ouch!  You had to mention that one didn't you?  Sadly there is no way around this problem currently.  Making our AF accurate and that doesn't shift with apertures or lenses is a reality.  Why does a Canon or Nikon have an AF fine tune option?

Faster lenses, mean bigger money and bigger weight (bigger shutters too, and I will skillfully avoid the slap question, but 99% of users feel this is a non issue with the steps we have taken).  There must be a compromise between these factors.

Prism?  Take a look through an H3D.  Go on.

LCD.  Ouch again!  This is an issue that can be solved.

It didn't take us forever, it took a combination of us and Adobe forever.  This is now solved.

Files shot to cards can now be (with Phocus 1.2) exported directly without the need for ingesting if you want a fast way to produce, TIFF, DNG, Previews, PSD, PSD-16, TIFF-16 etc etc.  Ingestation (is that a word?) is now a background task.  Incidentally during the import you can add IPTC data (full support), settings and so forth.  Its not as bad as you think.   Or use Aperture, Lightroom/ACR - drag and drop.

Its pretty clear from all manufacturers what size their sensors are, especially as we all shop at Kodak-mart and Dalsa-mart.  To produce a 28mm and a 35mm which works for the 31,39,50 and with very little limitation the 60, requires the images circle be a tad smaller.  Cost, weight, size are reduced and thus more appealing.  The perfect lens exists but only at the perfect price.  As for 'can you use the 28 and 35-90 on a 60MP' I have answered that many a time, so listen up!

We should also remember that not everybody wants 60MP and the 28 and 35-90 serve a lot of customers very well.

FW800 runs at FW800 speed now.

1 x Tilt Shift Lens, or lets say there was the possibility to make 2 x Tilt Shift Lenses.  What length would you like, What length would an Architecture photographer like, what length would a product photographer like?  Or we could make an adapter that serves five lenses and multiple customers.  'It would never sell' they said, but the order books show otherwise, dramatically.  Plus by measuring tilt /shift /rotation values the relative distortion, CA and vignetting introduced are removed anyway.  Can you show me a Canon TS or Nikon TS that can do the same?

Returning to my first comment we cannot please all of the people all of the time, but month by month it improves.  That does not mean however, a high end DSLR does not have its place in the photographers bag.  I think it is also fair to say that medium format makes sense to a lot of others, otherwise we would not be here.

As for black cameras, of course it is possible but we refrain simply to annoy people.    

Best,


David
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 04:40:28 pm by David Grover / Hasselblad »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2009, 04:54:48 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
when my washer brakes down I also don't get a loaner".

I would ask him why he is comparing a medium format camera to a washing machine. Is that what he thinks of it?

I am with everyone else (although I am no pro...): get a backup body, AFDI or AFDII, and look for a better dealer/distributor. Business first, emotions second.

I disagree that an RZ67 and 5D2 are proper backup though. You can't work the same way with a double-barreled cannon or a water pistol as with a Colt 45.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 05:09:05 pm by carstenw »
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2009, 04:56:41 pm »

Horses for courses......
And almost all MF shooters I know also own a DSLR.....
Best of both worlds.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 04:58:06 pm by Frank Doorhof »
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Peartree

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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2009, 11:56:32 am »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Horses for courses......
And almost all MF shooters I know also own a DSLR.....
Best of both worlds.

Hi Frank,
Yeh, you're right, in the good ol' days most pro's had a plethora of equipment in differing formats etc, and chose one for the specific job they were doing, however that was in the days when the people who were commissioning the photography knew how to brief photographers properly and knew at the time of the commission what the usage was gonna be. (sorry I've drifted off topic a little)

As regards your expectations from your dealer are concerned, I don't think they are un-reasonable, look at what you've bought, somewhere in the region of 40,000 euros I guess, the equivalent of a executive premium-brand family car, if the car goes wrong do you get a loaner. . yes of course you do!

To me it's all about building relationships with your dealer, bouncing ideas off each other, and using the dealer sometimes to fight your battles! Remember hopefully they carry more clout with the distributors, after all they should be buying many multiples of what an individual photographer would buy and distributor channels are normally set up for dealers to report faults quickly and efficiently. A good dealer should also be pragmatic with you and tell you whether your expectations are reasonable, or not, as the case may be. If you find one, cherish them.
Love your Dealer!
. . . and buy a spare AFD!

kindest
Andy
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 12:17:20 pm »

I think you mean do think they are unreasonable

« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 12:57:02 pm by Frank Doorhof »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 12:24:44 pm »

Quote from: Peartree
Hi Frank,
Yeh, you're right, in the good ol' days most pro's had a plethora of equipment in differing formats etc,


And you're right too Andy. But in the good ol' days I remember, every pro had at least two bodies that worked with each system they used, if not three or four...  And NONE of the ones I knew relied on their Nikon SLR outfit to back up their Hassy V kit except in case the second (or third or fourth) Hassy body failed...  In fact, most of the ones I knew even had dupes of their most used *lenses* in their cases too...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 12:27:07 pm by Jack Flesher »
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 12:41:02 pm »

[quote name='Frank Doorhof' date='Jun 10 2009, 05:17 PM' post='290290']
I think you mean do think they are unreasonable

No Frank I did mean that I did not think you were being unreasonable. I was agreeing with you!
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2009, 12:56:34 pm »

We mean the same thing
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