InkJet Canvas

[DAV33]

I am looking for a wide gamut natural white [non OBA] matt canvas. I have tried Premier Water Resistant Canvas for Epson, but find the gloss (reflections) rather objectionable and the color gamut rather small for a “gloss” product. On the other hand, Hahnemuhle Monet Canvas produces nice results and has a dead-flat spectral response, but is very expensive. Their Daguerre Canvas, same price, appears to use OBA’s, which I avoid even though for some images it gives superior results. There is much chatter about Fredrix 777BWR, Breathing Color Chromata White [claimed not to use OBA’s], and also Breathing Color Lyre. Does anyone out there have any thoughts/opinions on the matter of choice?

[davisf8]

I am looking for a wide gamut natural white [non OBA] matt canvas. I have tried Premier Water Resistant Canvas for Epson, but find the gloss (reflections) rather objectionable and the color gamut rather small for a “gloss” product. On the other hand, Hahnemuhle Monet Canvas produces nice results and has a dead-flat spectral response, but is very expensive. Their Daguerre Canvas, same price, appears to use OBA’s, which I avoid even though for some images it gives superior results. There is much chatter about Fredrix 777BWR, Breathing Color Chromata White [claimed not to use OBA’s], and also Breathing Color Lyre. Does anyone out there have any thoughts/opinions on the matter of choice?

I am experimenting with a new canvas. It's LexJet's Sunset Select Gloss Canvas. I have tried them all and have many different canvases over the years and have never been totally satisfied. I made 2 prints using this LexJet canvas this afternoon and so far I am very excited with the results. I will coat them with LexJet's Satin coating in a couple of days and then I will make the final judgment. But I must tell you I am seeing more detail in the shadows and a very nice range of tones in these portrait images.

I used an Epson 4880 with photo black and a LexJet provided profile.
I'll report again later.

Alan

[bill t.]

I like Fredrix 777 because it has rather minimal canvas texture and therefore prints pretty sharp (for a canvas).  The best thing about the minimal texture is you can really lay on a lot of gloss to bring out the richness without getting a galaxy of sparkly reflections (as with the unfortunate new Premium Canvas Matte texture).  Right now it is the only commonly available canvas without an absurd, overwrought texture.

One thing I've discovered about canvases is that canned profiles are very much less good than those for smooth papers.  I have a few downloaded manufacturers profiles that just couldn't possibly be for the specified media.  I just made a "after coating" profile for Fredrix 777 and it shows almost no out-of-gamut areas on the preview, more like a glossy paper than matte media, and it prints great.  If you want to get the most out of canvas you have to buy or make your own profiles.

Yes, has anybody tried Breathing Color Lyre yet?  What's the texture like?

One thing though, nobody has QC as good as Epson, have seen way too many QC problems with other manufacturers lately, although Breathing Color has gotten much better recently.

[Ken Doo]

I have several rolls of the new Breathing Color Lyve in studio---been awfully busy, but just generated new printer profiles for the canvas this evening.  I plan on doing a mini-review comparison between the BC Chromata White and the new Lyve canvas.  In short, the canvas substrate is the same as chromata white, but has a different receptive coating which is claimed to be better.  Although the tooth of the canvas, weight, and appearance are the same, the new Lyve canvas just "feels" slightly softer to the touch.  Might just be me---but I think it does feel, um, nicer.

To be fair, I am also generating new printer profiles of the chromata white for consistency sake.   Too tired----I'll try printing tomorrow....

[DAV33]

I am experimenting with a new canvas. It's LexJet's Sunset Select Gloss Canvas. I have tried them all and have many different canvases over the years and have never been totally satisfied. I made 2 prints using this LexJet canvas this afternoon and so far I am very excited with the results. I will coat them with LexJet's Satin coating in a couple of days and then I will make the final judgment. But I must tell you I am seeing more detail in the shadows and a very nice range of tones in these portrait images.

I used an Epson 4880 with photo black and a LexJet provided profile.
I'll report again later.

Alan

[DAV33]

I am experimenting with a new canvas. It's LexJet's Sunset Select Gloss Canvas. I have tried them all and have many different canvases over the years and have never been totally satisfied. I made 2 prints using this LexJet canvas this afternoon and so far I am very excited with the results. I will coat them with LexJet's Satin coating in a couple of days and then I will make the final judgment. But I must tell you I am seeing more detail in the shadows and a very nice range of tones in these portrait images.

I used an Epson 4880 with photo black and a LexJet provided profile.
I'll report again later.

Alan

Thanks for your comments. Let me know if the "satin" coating you want to try succeeds in dull down the gloss of the as-printed canvas.

Dave

[DAV33]

I like Fredrix 777 because it has rather minimal canvas texture and therefore prints pretty sharp (for a canvas).  The best thing about the minimal texture is you can really lay on a lot of gloss to bring out the richness without getting a galaxy of sparkly reflections (as with the unfortunate new Premium Canvas Matte texture).  Right now it is the only commonly available canvas without an absurd, overwrought texture.

One thing I've discovered about canvases is that canned profiles are very much less good than those for smooth papers.  I have a few downloaded manufacturers profiles that just couldn't possibly be for the specified media.  I just made a "after coating" profile for Fredrix 777 and it shows almost no out-of-gamut areas on the preview, more like a glossy paper than matte media, and it prints great.  If you want to get the most out of canvas you have to buy or make your own profiles.

Yes, has anybody tried Breathing Color Lyre yet?  What's the texture like?

One thing though, nobody has QC as good as Epson, have seen way too many QC problems with other manufacturers lately, although Breathing Color has gotten much better recently.

[DAV33]

I like Fredrix 777 because it has rather minimal canvas texture and therefore prints pretty sharp (for a canvas).  The best thing about the minimal texture is you can really lay on a lot of gloss to bring out the richness without getting a galaxy of sparkly reflections (as with the unfortunate new Premium Canvas Matte texture).  Right now it is the only commonly available canvas without an absurd, overwrought texture.

One thing I've discovered about canvases is that canned profiles are very much less good than those for smooth papers.  I have a few downloaded manufacturers profiles that just couldn't possibly be for the specified media.  I just made a "after coating" profile for Fredrix 777 and it shows almost no out-of-gamut areas on the preview, more like a glossy paper than matte media, and it prints great.  If you want to get the most out of canvas you have to buy or make your own profiles.

Yes, has anybody tried Breathing Color Lyre yet?  What's the texture like?

One thing though, nobody has QC as good as Epson, have seen way too many QC problems with other manufacturers lately, although Breathing Color has gotten much better recently.

Thanks for your reply. What gloss coating did you use over the 777 [Glamour II, Fredrix Texturing Gel, etc] and what was your method of application?

Dave

[bill t.]

GlamourII Gloss applied with a Fuji HVLP gun.  Have also used a cheap "Control Spray" Wagner HVLP from Lowes, that worked too but the Fuji can lay down much thicker coats and is more reliable and easier to maintain and clean.  There are many posts here about technique.

With the Fuji, 2 to 4 moderate coats of GII diluted with water so the mix is 40% water 60% GII.  GII is very forgiving of variations of air temperature and humidity, but the undiluted stuff is so thick it's a little  annoying to measure and mix.  If you decide to mix in a certain amount of GII Matte to reduce the gloss, be aware you have to keep the mix very well stirred since the presence of Matte in the liquid seems to create precipitates, which is otherwise not a problem with mixes containing only Gloss which stays in solution very well.  In practice you can get a matte or satin finish using only Gloss just by laying down relatively thin coats.

You can also put down 33:67 water:GII with a thin foam roller.  The trick is to pour the diluted GII directly on the print then spread it with the roller.  It is almost impossible to get liguid onto the print fast enough using only the roller to transfer the liquid, which leads to too-fast drying and all kinds of finish problems especially on large prints.  But spraying is much preferred, it never fails whereas rolling is somewhat iffy at best.

GII also has the least objectionable smell of all the coatings I have tried.

[Ken Doo]

Yes, has anybody tried Breathing Color Lyre yet?  What's the texture like?

I think you'll like the new Breathing Color Lyve Canvas, Bill.  It is the same smooth canvas media as Chromata White.  Details print well.  I just printed some canvas for an artist.  It is a subtle improvement over Chromata White.  Not dramatic, but definitely noticable to the eye when comparing side by side.  I haven't sprayed the Glamour II on the canvas yet and expect the colors to pop even more when I coat the canvas tomorrow.

ken

[davisf8]

Thanks for your comments. Let me know if the "satin" coating you want to try succeeds in dull down the gloss of the as-printed canvas.

Dave

I made 3 more prints on Friday, all portrait images, one medium key and the other 2 low key images. These low key images are where I was always the most dis-satisfied before with not a lot range in tones. This LexJet Sunset Slect Gloss canvas is by far the best canvas I have ever printed to. Every print I have made so far looks so good. The low key images are beautiful with deep rich colors, very nice contrast with nice details in the shadows.
The LexJet provided profile is very good.

I coated that first print with the LexJet Sunset Satin coating and it was perfect for bringing down the gloss just enough. One word of warning, do not shake this coating before you use it. It will create air bubbles that will show up in the print. Only stir it gently before applying it with foam rollers.

I am so happy with this combination of this canvas and the Epson 4880 that I am now getting a quote from LexJet for a new Epson printer. I just can't decide whether to get the 7900 or the 9900.

I sell many wall portraits, but mostly up to 24x30 with few 30x40s sold over the years. If I get the 7900 I won't be able to make 24x30s with the extra canvas around the print to stretch on a stretcher frame. I could of course print 24x30s on the 7900 using the borderless setting and then mount the 24x30 on masonite.
I assume I would need to purchase a drymount press to do this. From what I have read here on this forum most of you agree that using this method would be the best. The Miracle Muck method sounds interesting but I am concerned about the mess and cleanup.

I am a bit concerned about all the clogging issues I here about on the 7900s and 9900s. I have been using my 4880 now for about 3 months and have had to do only one cleaning.
Maybe I should just get the 7880 or 9880???

Alan

[DAV33]

I think you'll like the new Breathing Color Lyve Canvas, Bill.  It is the same smooth canvas media as Chromata White.  Details print well.  I just printed some canvas for an artist.  It is a subtle improvement over Chromata White.  Not dramatic, but definitely noticable to the eye when comparing side by side.  I haven't sprayed the Glamour II on the canvas yet and expect the colors to pop even more when I coat the canvas tomorrow.

ken

Looking in Color Think at the gamut volumes generated with K3 inks and Monaco Proof profiles, the newer Lyve has an approximate 13% increase in gamut volume over Chromata White. And, as noted, both products appear to use the same base {course?}canvas material. In Practical terms, this difference will probably only be noticed on direct comparisons between the two, and then probably only in certain, but not all prints.  I will comment further after I have had a chance to run a number of sample prints with different “finish” coatings.

Dave

[Ken Doo]

Looking in Color Think at the gamut volumes generated with K3 inks and Monaco Proof profiles, the newer Lyve has an approximate 13% increase in gamut volume over Chromata White. And, as noted, both products appear to use the same base {course?}canvas material. In Practical terms, this difference will probably only be noticed on direct comparisons between the two, and then probably only in certain, but not all prints.  I will comment further after I have had a chance to run a number of sample prints with different “finish” coatings.

Dave

Hi Dave,

FYI, I've put my initial impressions on the new Breathing Color Lyve canvas on my blog:  http://kendoophotography.wordpress.com/

ken

[Colorwave]

Dave, Ken, and others that have tried the Lyve-
I'm a bit surprised that a 13% larger gamut is not more appreciable to the naked eye.  I guess that if we were speaking two dimensionally, or in terms of time, it would be more noticeable, but if it is reasonably symmetrical, it just needs to be a very small bit larger all around to add up to 13% more gamut volume.  Dave, did you see any particular lumpy areas in  ColorThink that push the Lyve farther out in any particular color ranges than the Chromata White?  As a Z3100 user, the right answer to tell me is RED.  I'm willing to settle for an accurate answer as well, though.  Since Lyve is about 9% more expensive than Chromata White, I guess they are throwing in the other 4% of gamut increase for free!

[Doyle Yoder]

GlamourII Gloss applied with a Fuji HVLP gun.  Have also used a cheap "Control Spray" Wagner HVLP from Lowes, that worked too but the Fuji can lay down much thicker coats and is more reliable and easier to maintain and clean.  There are many posts here about technique.

With the Fuji, 2 to 4 moderate coats of GII diluted with water so the mix is 40% water 60% GII.  GII is very forgiving of variations of air temperature and humidity, but the undiluted stuff is so thick it's a little  annoying to measure and mix.  If you decide to mix in a certain amount of GII Matte to reduce the gloss, be aware you have to keep the mix very well stirred since the presence of Matte in the liquid seems to create precipitates, which is otherwise not a problem with mixes containing only Gloss which stays in solution very well.  In practice you can get a matte or satin finish using only Gloss just by laying down relatively thin coats.

You can also put down 33:67 water:GII with a thin foam roller.  The trick is to pour the diluted GII directly on the print then spread it with the roller.  It is almost impossible to get liguid onto the print fast enough using only the roller to transfer the liquid, which leads to too-fast drying and all kinds of finish problems especially on large prints.  But spraying is much preferred, it never fails whereas rolling is somewhat iffy at best.

GII also has the least objectionable smell of all the coatings I have tried.

I have a question for those of you using Glamour-II. I am wondering what do you use for UV protection or is that not important.

In all my searching and repeated requests from Breathing Color I have never come across any UV protection claims for Glamour-II. If any has such documentation exists I would like to see it.

Doyle

[DAV33]

Dave, Ken, and others that have tried the Lyve-
I'm a bit surprised that a 13% larger gamut is not more appreciable to the naked eye.  I guess that if we were speaking two dimensionally, or in terms of time, it would be more noticeable, but if it is reasonably symmetrical, it just needs to be a very small bit larger all around to add up to 13% more gamut volume.  Dave, did you see any particular lumpy areas in  ColorThink that push the Lyve farther out in any particular color ranges than the Chromata White?  As a Z3100 user, the right answer to tell me is RED.  I'm willing to settle for an accurate answer as well, though.  Since Lyve is about 9% more expensive than Chromata White, I guess they are throwing in the other 4% of gamut increase for free!

The attached measurements show, as you suspected, that the increase in gamut of Lyve over Chromata White is rather symmetrical which accounts for the fact that the increase in the saturation of any one color is small.  Still, for some subjects this small amount may make the difference between a good print and a great one.  On the other hand, technical measurements don’t always coincide with that you see.  For instance, under typical indoor household illumination a print on matt paper [Dmax ~1.5] can often appear to have “deeper” blacks that the same print on Gloss/luster paper [Dmax ~2.2].  This due the desaturating effects of the surface reflections from the “gloss type” finishes.  Take the same prints out into the sun and orient both so that no reflections can be seen and the D-2.2 will appear to be darker as it should. So is Lyve worth the price over Chromata White? Only you can say.  For my part, I can’t say right now because of things like the affects of coatings and how they are applied may make as much of a visual difference as the Gamut difference under consideration. I will be exploring these issues in the weeks ahead.

Dave

[Colorwave]

Thanks, Dave.  Looks like there is just a bit more air pressure in that funny shaped soccer ball.  No lumps that fail to conform to the original shape.  The slightly more pliable surface sounds much like the Hahnemuhle canvas, which is much more drape prone than the Chromata.  It makes stretching a bit easier.  Unfortunately, the Hahnemuhle is appreciably more expensive than the Lyve, which is a bit more than the Chromata.  I will be testing Lyve for myself soon, and look forward to other input from those that already have it on hand.

[DAV33]

Thanks, Dave.  Looks like there is just a bit more air pressure in that funny shaped soccer ball.  No lumps that fail to conform to the original shape.  The slightly more pliable surface sounds much like the Hahnemuhle canvas, which is much more drape prone than the Chromata.  It makes stretching a bit easier.  Unfortunately, the Hahnemuhle is appreciably more expensive than the Lyve, which is a bit more than the Chromata.  I will be testing Lyve for myself soon, and look forward to other input from those that already have it on hand.

Greetings to Bill, Ron, Ken and others who have contributed to this discussion.

One current issue is the difference in properties between Breathing Color Chromata White and Breathing Color Lyve.  A study conducted in Color Think from standard K3 as-printed profiles generated with Monaco Proof showed that the latter had and approximate 13% relatively symmetrical increase in gamut for a 9% direct increase in price.  The question, is this worth the price? The attached plot illustrates this difference, Chromata White - true color; Lyve – red wire frame.  The overlying cyan wire frame is the profile generated from Lyve coated with 2 coats of Glamour II mixed 75% gloss/25% matt and applied with a roller [admittedly not the best way to do this for optimum control] for an ~ 28% increase in gamut and a Dmax increase from ~ 1.5 to ~2.1! The results clearly show that gloss or the lack thereof in the finished canvas print plays a much greater role than the difference between the two products.  Therefore, assuming that a “matt” finish is what is usually chosen, a slight increase in the Glamour II gloss/matt ratio or coating thickness may easily overcome the as-printed gamut difference.  Of course, this may drive the finish where you don’t want it [too plastic looking], or perhaps the “gloss gain” may not be all that noticeable for the given gamut gain.  Everything is a compromise among the input variables, but I believe this study clearly shows the importance overcoat type, concentration, number of coats, and coating technique on the realized print gamut. Therefore, ultimately, coating technique and reproducibility may be a more important issue than the small gamut difference among the better current canvas products.

[Colorwave]

Interesting comparison, Dav33.  It looks like the gamut increase from coating, unlike the difference in substrate, is not symmetrical.  Much more pronounced in the orange through blue green part of the spectrum, and quite bottom heavy.  I guess the matte finish scatters more light than a more reflective surface does, resulting in the different values.  I spray mine, so I would imagine the difference is not quite as pronounced with less finish being applied.  Thanks for sharing this plot.

[ThePhotoDude]

Interesting comparison, Dav33.  It looks like the gamut increase from coating, unlike the difference in substrate, is not symmetrical.  Much more pronounced in the orange through blue green part of the spectrum, and quite bottom heavy.  I guess the matte finish scatters more light than a more reflective surface does, resulting in the different values.  I spray mine, so I would imagine the difference is not quite as pronounced with less finish being applied.  Thanks for sharing this plot.

Bottom heavy ... does that translate to better shadow detail? Sorry, I'm not familiar with how to read/understand these plots yet. They look pretty tho'! - I have purchased ColorThink and played around but it's still a bit beyond me.