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Author Topic: Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!  (Read 48883 times)

Graham Mitchell

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2009, 10:47:07 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
Strange!
Does ANYTHING change if you switch the preview from "monitor color" to "Mac (without CM)" to "Win (without CM)" to "document profile" ???
I still wonder very much about the desaturated "original" file on the left side.

Yes, if I am in "save for web" window and select these different modes, the preview changes. "Doc profile" and "windows" look the same, both a bit more saturated. The monitor profile is even more saturated. The Mac profile is much brighter.
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32BT

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2009, 10:58:54 am »

Maybe it's the same problem as mentioned here on the Adobe forums:
Scened-referred profiles and corrupt(?) display profile


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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2009, 11:14:08 am »

Quote from: opgr
Maybe it's the same problem as mentioned here on the Adobe forums:
Scened-referred profiles and corrupt(?) display profile

It doesn't appear to be the same. Toggling that control he mentions has no effect.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2009, 11:18:49 am »

Quote from: foto-z
It doesn't appear to be the same. Toggling that control he mentions has no effect.
would you PM me that 791KB PSD-file (exactly as it is with no further changes)?... I am not going to sell it ;-)
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32BT

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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2009, 11:34:21 am »

Did you try trashing your Photoshop preferences?

Or could it be synchronized preferences (multiple CS apps)?

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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2009, 01:03:29 pm »

Quote from: opgr
Did you try trashing your Photoshop preferences?

Or could it be synchronized preferences (multiple CS apps)?

I tried trashing the prefs, but that didn't change anything.

I don't have any other CS apps open.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2009, 04:41:06 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
I am suffering the same issue.
I don't think so... your webpage looks like Flash based. And Flash doesn't support CM. And for Firefox and Safari the images displayed with Flash are not "images" but "films".
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tho_mas

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« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2009, 06:50:56 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
I agree but it is not just a Flash issue, the screen grab however is a good representation of the errors also experienced in a non flash environment.
Yes. The grab is a good representation of an sRGB image displayed on a wide gamut monitor without colourmanagment (oversaturated).
I don't know where you findings come from but me personally I couldn't create problems with different formats of monitor profiles by now.
V2 and V4 and LUT as well as matrix monitor profiles work well in my applications (primary Capture One, Photoshop, Firefox3) both on Mac and Windows Vista.
For your CG241W Eizos Color Navigator is highly recommended! (note: CN creates matrix profiles only - and on Windows always in V4, on Mac always in V2).
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:51:48 pm by tho_mas »
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tho_mas

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2009, 07:46:00 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
CS4 and ACR (latest versions) display images accurately, Lightroom and Capture One Pro V4.8 do not - on my system.
frustrating, I see. But from the outside hard to tell the cause.
see here: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=285279 (edit: link updated)
That's C1 (4.8) and PS CS4 on Mac OSX10.5.7
And in comparision this is C1 (4.7) and PS CS4 on Win Vista (32bit):
[attachment=13843:win_c1_ps.jpg]
(BTW: seems that Vista's WCS is closer to Adobe's ACE than Apple CMM is to ACE)

May I ask which colour space do you use as working space (or better: output colour in C1 and Lightroom)?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:02:44 pm by tho_mas »
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Jack Flesher

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2009, 08:05:11 pm »

Stupid question, but are you using Open GL in CS4?  I had major CM issues with it so have totally disabled it and that solved all my color issues.  This was on both my Macbook Pro and Mac Pro desktop.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:05:51 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Jack
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Professional

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2009, 08:08:30 pm »

I don't have this problem, or do i?

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tho_mas

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« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2009, 08:14:33 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
In both cases I archive the RAW to 16 bit Tiffs in Pro Photo and convert images for clients in Adobe RGB 1998, and in some cases sRGB. I have tried outputting in Adobe RGB 1998 but this has not improved matters.
thought so. Don't want to discuss it but ProPhotoRGB to me is just a theoretical colour space for experimental purpuses only with NO reference to real world devices. Though this is not your problem here I'd recommend to embed the camera profile when you use C1.
You'll lose nothing - as your camera profile works as input profile in any way in C1 and is then converted relative colormetric to ProPhoto you gain exactly the same colours but in a much bigger (and much too big) colour space. So the sole thing that happens is that you enlarge the coding space but you do not gain a single colour. The opposite: you may clip some dark tonal values as some camera profiles exceed even ProPhoto (but only at the low end: i.e. the darkest tonalvalues). Period.
As you see from my posted examples basically it's not C1 that causes the problems. C1 and Photoshop match very well on my machines (BTW since C1 V3.6 and Photoshop... I don't know... CS2?... and maybe 5 or 6 Computers incl. WinXP, Vista, Mac).

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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2009, 08:15:16 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
CS4 and ACR (latest versions) display images accurately, Lightroom and Capture One Pro V4.8 do not - on my system.

In C1 you need to set the profile in View>Proof Profile then it renders accurately

Cheers,
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Jack
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walter.sk

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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2009, 08:20:59 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Any idea what's going on? I need to really desaturate the Phtooshop file to make it look good in the browser. What is even weirder is that I have always had very consistent results going from Photoshop to my print shop (using a large format Epson - excellent printer btw).

So I seem to need two different versions of the file. One for AdobeRGB printing, and another desaturated version for conversion to web.

Another puzzling thing is why the 'save for web' window looks like this, with very different saturations in the 2 windows:



To make things worse, this seems to happen with some images and not others. Oh btw, it doesn't help if I convert to sRGB in Photoshop outside the 'save for web' function first.

I have the same problem.  I never had it when until I switched from my trusty old CRT display to a wide-spectrum NEC 3090, profiled and calibrated with SpectraView II.  Working in ProPhoto RGB and 16-bit color depth, CS4 on a WinXP machine, I love the color accuracy of the display, and my HP Z3100-profiled prints are an extremely close match.  However, when I convert to Jpegs (not for the web, but for several other purposes) I am shocked when I see the over-saturation.  I convert the profile from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB in Photoshop, with the preview on.

I see the oversaturation of the jpegs on my monitor, but when they are projected with a digital projector the oversaturation is almost 100% gone, so I think it is a function of my monitor.  Again, it never happened with my old CRT, which also was profiled quite accurately but, of course, had a much smaller gamut.

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tho_mas

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2009, 08:21:05 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Stupid question, but are you using Open GL in CS4?
good hint. To encircle the problems maybe it's better to deactivate Open GL.
My OpenGL settings look like this (hope it's reasonable translated):
vertical sync: activated
bilinear interpolation: deactivated
advanced drawing: activated
submenu adv. drawing:
use for preview: activated
debugging/compositing: gamma corrected
colour adaption: activated
... on WinVista and Mac 10.5.6/10.5.7
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:54:20 pm by tho_mas »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2009, 08:24:34 pm »

Quote from: Professional
I don't have this problem, or do i?
looks good
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tho_mas

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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2009, 08:27:55 pm »

Quote from: Nick Walker
In the case of ACR there is no issue if I use Pro Photo. Lightroom uses a derivative of Pro Photo (Melissa RGB) and I would expect the results to be very similar but as you can see they are not. I will try your CI recommendations to see if this stops the shadows from blocking.
I thought LR actually uses the same engine as ACR (camera raw)?
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2009, 09:47:16 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
Don't want to discuss it but ProPhotoRGB to me is just a theoretical colour space for experimental purpuses only with NO reference to real world devices.

Of course you are free to discuss it or not discuss it as you please, but having made this statement others are also free to comment. And my comment is simply that this is not correct. It isn'y an experimental working space. It is a real operational colour space being used by countless photographers producing excellent output from it. Yes, it's gamut is wider than that of our current devices (note however that the latest Epson Professional printers can reproduce parts of the colour gamut exceeding Adobe RGB '98), but that does not make it either "theoretical" or "experimental".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2009, 01:30:18 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
Don't want to discuss it but ProPhotoRGB to me is just a theoretical colour space for experimental purpuses only with NO reference to real world devices.

Uh huh. . .well then since your mind is made up I guess there's use explaining just how wrong you are, huh?

It is neither merely theoretical nor experimental and it's based in solid research (which if you're gonna offer an opinion you are duty bound to understand).

Look up Pro Photo RGB on Wikipedia here and get back to us (there's no reason to waste the time retyping what's already there).

The bottom line is that if you are capturing in raw and outputting to anything other that the web (sRGB) you are leaving color that your camera can capture and color that most inkjet prints can reproduce, on the table.

If you think that ProPhoto RGB is still only "theoretical" or "experimental" you must be living 9-10 years in the past (which is when Kodak first started working on the research).

Doooode, you really have to catch up to the new millennium, ya know? Technology (and color management) is passing you bye...
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 01:31:27 am by Schewe »
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neil snape

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Colour issue driving me crazy. Please help!
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2009, 03:42:20 am »

Pro Photo is good foresight as when it was conceived the computational horsepower was not at all there but the colour scientists saw it as a spring board covering many years if not decades of photography in a digital format for every use of archiving and transmission for multi purposing of the images captured, recorded, created, etc.

Capture has been and is using a large part of the colour space, some new monitors are able to surpass the monitor derived Adobe RGB, and many printers are reaching out farther and farther into the Pro Photo space. In the next ten years the devices will surely go farther into the images potential if recorded or passed through this space.

If anything it is the ICC who should be quicker to adopt some of the propositions that would better exploit the use of the maximum potential of capture and or images sing large parts of Pro Photo.

Like in the film days, Pro Photo is the largest tool , the most colourful view out of the lot which will be the king for a long time to come as if it were Kodachrome compared to Ektachrome or Velvia compared to Astia.  Even if you use it for imagery that don't go beyond the limits of lesser spaces, it costs no more to preserve the potential in every image.

Already with some users moving up to any of the new printers like the Epson x900, Canon iPGraf, or HP Z3200 if when reprinting the image previously printed on lesser gamut printers, from ProPhoto and or traversing through fetch a remarkable difference and gain by pushing the boundaries.

Why would you want to do without?

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