kick back

[ThierryH]

Heinrich,

yes, that is also to be considered, not making oneself prosecutable in another country.

The line is really difficult to draw in Asia: as a foreigner one has "some" morality, one tries to fight against such immoral behaviors, then one realizes that one cannot change the system and that it is much related to the education, and eventually one is caught in the "game" simply because things get done this way.

That is also the reason why I am so happy to be able to get back to Europe, believe me. Moreover, it gives another light to my children.

Thierry

@ Thierry: I see your point, but if you do this "bribery" in order to make better business for a German company, the German state can prosecute you for doing this, because IT IS against German Law. Even when it happened somewhere else on the planet. Again, Siemens is a prominent case for this.

I don't think it is only a question of bending morality a little bit, because: Where do you draw the line? What is immoral? What would you not do, to get things done? No offense, just asking!

[ericstaud]

I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10% is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.

Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.
My response was purely for those situations were an agency wants 10% more because it's a bigger job or a client that can give you more work in the future.

AGAIN doing something ILLEGAL or in this case doing something like a payment off the papers is not something I would advise or do.

My response was again purely based on the idea I got from the first post that normally they bill you for ammount X only and for this client they will bill you ammount X plus 10% of your fee.

In that case I really don't see anything wrong, and especially not worth the ridicilous attack to me as a person by Toby.
Again I don't know the term kick back as it was described later on, in that case my response would be different of course.
Risking your reputation or business for a job is NEVER a good thing.

I think that there has also been a little confusion on this thread about the photographers agent and the advertising agency.  When anyone just says "agent" or "agency"  it's hard to know what their talking about.

I took the first post to mean the art director at the agency expected a kickback.  The art director did not "get" the photographer a job, they "gave" the photographer a job.  I think most advertising agencies and their clients would fire an art director who individually asked for a kickback because it is a conflict of interest with their primary function.  The art director can not properly serve the needs of the ad agency and client while at the same time working only with the photographers who give kickbacks.

I googled the term kickback.  Most of the stories were about employees getting fired for the practice, and often going to jail for the tax evasion and document falsification that went hand in hand with the kickbacks.

There were also stories about companies expecting kickbacks from other companies.  Because they make the rules and agree to contracts, it is not illegal.  Here is a little story that sounds like the experience that Andre had back in another life.  It could be argued that this kickback scheme is not in the best interest of the condo owners,  but the company tries to argue their side anyway.  It is a conlict of interest in my view, and can't really serve the condo owners....   http://www.suntimes.com/business/roeder/15...oeder06.article

[heinrichvoelkel]

@ thierry

By the way, what you're up to in  Switzerland? Still in camera business?

[Jeremy Payne]

I think that there has also been a little confusion on this thread about the photographers agent and the advertising agency.

Agreed ... true "agents" - whether contractual or ad hoc - can expect and deserve to be paid for connecting a "supplier" (photographer) to a "buyer" (ad agency).

An employee of the "buyer" who surreptitiously tries to capture some benefit from the supplier for steering his employer's business to that particular supplier is seeking a "kickback" and is acting un-ethically.

I'll leave questions of law to the lawyers.

[Frank Doorhof]

@Eric,
When explained that way I'm 100% at the same side as you, let's get that straight.

[JerryReed]

Here's an interesting approach.  Learn the name of this person's superior, after getting the job and being paid make the kick back check out to the person who requested the kick back and mail it to the person's  superior, showing the purpose of the payment "...to secure the job".

Jerry Reed

[gwhitf]

Here's an interesting approach.  Learn the name of this person's superior, after getting the job and being paid make the kick back check out to the person who requested the kick back and mail it to the person's  superior, showing the purpose of the payment "...to secure the job".

The problem with that is, the AD that was requesting the backdoor kickback paid HIS boss off to secure his full time position. And on and on, up the chain of command.

Is that what they mean when they say "Pay it Forward".....?

Best thread ever. I'll even mention the words Medium Format so that the thread doesn't get killed.

You should see some of the overly serious documents (multi page), that I receive from large corporations, that address this issue. No gifts, no tickets, no iPods, no BJ's, no nothing. US corporations take this very seriously.

As far as Eastern Europe, well, all bets are off.

[Smallcooter]

It's all double Dutch to me.

[Snook]

Eric this is so true.

It is pure and simple bribery; unethical business and everyone here should distance themselves from photographers like Frank Dorhoff and Andre Napier and their way of morality.



I hope Elinchrom and Leaf are reading this thread and distance themselves from Mr. Dorhoff - encouraging fellow photographers to get involved in bribery should have you banned from every forum.

Andre, I would worry if some photographer you "won" a job from would send this link to the IRS, I think you could be in deep trouble.

The funny part of this thread is Paul More buying a gun for his client, I wonder what a psychoanalyst would think of this story - or perhaps it is just protection from the mafia who also wants a cut of the deal  

Stefan you did the right thing and protected your business and name in the long run - bravo.

T

It not often that I stand up for Frank , But Toby I think your statements are totally un called for..
What the hell does leaf and Elinchrom and Frank have anything to do with Kick backs.
That would be simple sponsor ship and that is what makes our world go around.
You think it is Kickback that Tiger Woods has Nike Logos everywhere assoiciated with him...
I think you need to re think what you wrote.



Snook

[geesbert]

i think I have to clarify a few things about my story: the guy is a freelance AD working for a big advertising agency. he is organizing a photo-shoot for a major manufacturer. he asked me to quote for a job, we went into further discussion and then suddenly he drops his notion of getting 10% of my creative fee for getting me that job. I told him I wouldn't accept this under no circumstances, then he returns, as I am not working with a rep I shouldn't mind, as they would take 25%.

I can't comment on the morals here, but for me it would be a situation where I only loose by accepting this.

1. it is unlawful
2. either I am earning 10% less on that job or I am 10% more expensive, so I might not get the job.
3. why in the world should I pay this? I do not have a rep, which means client contact is a lot of work for me. I make money by doing it myself.
4. I am fully booked for the next 3 months, this job would have filled my only free week till mid August. I'd rather spend the time with my family.

Still, my experience with the people in photography business is a pretty positive one. nearly all the ad agencies I am working with are extremely professional and correct. they give me jobs and both them and me make money with that. I guess I was just lucky not to encounter such a thing until now.

once an advertising agency asked me whether I would do their portraits for their website for free after they gave me a job. I happily accepted, I guess this could be seen as a kick-back too.

Most people are nice, I am holding onto this....on the other hand, someone stole our pram last night, I still can't believe how you can steal a pram.


stefan

[lisa_r]

So he's a freelance weasel, like I thought.

By pram, you mean a baby carriage, right?

[geesbert]

yes, our baby carriage. sorry, made by neither leaf nor sinar, a bit off-topic.

what a way to start a life pushed around in a stolen pram.

[geesbert]

thinking a bit more about it: taking money from photographers is a neat way for the AD to lower his fees to the client and still get enough, at times when there are a lot of creative workers fiddeling their thumbs it is not such a stupid move.

[andershald]

I have never been asked for a kickback from an art director or artbuyer, but a friend of mine mentioned that he'd heard about this with ad agencies in London taking a cut. I think it is an unfortunate trend and if enough photographer don't play along, it might not take off. I'd like to think that I am hired on the basis of my skills not on sharing a cut. If all the really talented photographers refuse to pay a kickback, it'll be harder for the art buyer or ad to justify their choice of photographers.

I guess my suggestion is that if you feel confident in the quality of your work you ignoe the request. And you make sure to discuss the phenomenon with as many of your colleagues and connections in the advertising industry as possible...people need to understand that the consequence of this praxis is photographic work of poorer quality.

Corruption is wrong in so many ways and it needs to be stopped at any level it might occur.

[mcfoto]

i think I have to clarify a few things about my story: the guy is a freelance AD working for a big advertising agency. he is organizing a photo-shoot for a major manufacturer. he asked me to quote for a job, we went into further discussion and then suddenly he drops his notion of getting 10% of my creative fee for getting me that job. I told him I wouldn't accept this under no circumstances, then he returns, as I am not working with a rep I shouldn't mind, as they would take 25%.

I can't comment on the morals here, but for me it would be a situation where I only loose by accepting this.

1. it is unlawful
2. either I am earning 10% less on that job or I am 10% more expensive, so I might not get the job.
3. why in the world should I pay this? I do not have a rep, which means client contact is a lot of work for me. I make money by doing it myself.
4. I am fully booked for the next 3 months, this job would have filled my only free week till mid August. I'd rather spend the time with my family.

Still, my experience with the people in photography business is a pretty positive one. nearly all the ad agencies I am working with are extremely professional and correct. they give me jobs and both them and me make money with that. I guess I was just lucky not to encounter such a thing until now.

once an advertising agency asked me whether I would do their portraits for their website for free after they gave me a job. I happily accepted, I guess this could be seen as a kick-back too.

Most people are nice, I am holding onto this....on the other hand, someone stole our pram last night, I still can't believe how you can steal a pram.


stefan

Hi
I think the way to come back to him is to explain what a rep does for their 25%. For example a rep could see 25 agencies before they get a quote. If you convert 1 out of 4 quotes into a job that is not bad. So a good rep has to do a lot of work with hours of marketing just to get one job. Explain that to this AD.
Denis

[David WM]

With this individual situation it might be hard to see without more individual information, but there are other ways of looking at this.

The AD is a freelancer, right, so he is self employed...like most of us.  We all mark up our business inputs costs before billing our clients. From his business point of view,  the supplier (photographer) is billing your client (ad agency) direct, so the AD missing out on one of the possible revenue streams (marking up a suppliers input) , so the AD asks the supplier to pay a commission. After all the AD has used  expertise to select the supplier and that intellectual decision is worth something.  

It would be like going to a hardware shop looking for a particular tool and they don't have it in stock, but their wholesaler does have it. They say that you can pay them their retail price and they will give you a purchase order to go down the road and pick up the tool directly from the wholesaler. Are you being ripped off by not paying the wholesale price?

Before kicking the AD out it would be worth asking  how the 10% is justified to get an idea of where the request is coming from. It might be a decision from the agency that they are going to under pay the AD on the basis that he picks up commissions from suppliers chosen for the job. You could then say "so you don't mind if I confirm that with your CD?"

David

[evonzz]

Thierry - thailand sounds like China in those regards - but paying companies for legitimate time saving services in third party industries (eg visa renewals)  as opposed to perpetuating a destructive practice in the industry you work in is slightly different in my mind.  I do however agree that there is no black and white and in some circumstances one does have to think about their own interests and what is relevant to them.

RE

it would definitively help "Toby1014" to live in one of these countries where briberies/kickbacks and other under-the-table-money are common practices to get things done, to see things under a different light. Life is not that easy and simple for all, sometimes one has to adapt to the existing "culture" and habits.

Am I culprit if I am ready to pay 500 Thai Bath to a corrupt policeman (for locals it's 50 Bath), instead of having to drive through Bangkok to the police station to pay my fine and get my passport back, with 1/2 day lost? Am I culprit if I hire a middle-man and pay him 5'000 Thai Bath to get my 1-year visa in a day and without hassle, instead of having to go myself a few times without the certainty to get it and being asked each time different documents? Am I culprit to make use of a fictive job contract (paid for) to get a working permit, when otherwise it is almost impossible under certain circumstances? I can continue with many other examples. Therefore, it does not surprise me to have such practices in China: it happens at all levels, in photography and elsewhere, and I have experienced it all the time.

Coming from Germany, though, it sounds a bit different and certainly not the norm, IMO. In other words, I am convinced that most of the jobs to be done can be won the "normal" way, with the talent and skills of the photographers. I certainly won't accept to pay this "fee".

But would I have to work in Asia/South-East Asia, I am not really sure what would be my response: it is too often the only way to get forward, being talented or not.

Difficult question with no black or white answer, for me.

Thierry

[ThierryH]

I do fully agree with you, Rodney, it is indeed different. I know China well, and how it works there, at all levels. Connections and briberies are common life at all levels. Most importantly, when I am speaking about paying somebody to get a visa, it means that this happens at the government level. How do you want normal citizen to act with morality, when they see and know that the politicians are corrupt?

By the way, it happens that today there is an news article in one of Bangkok's English newspaper, here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...ole-in-thailand

It is kind of funny, that this is published today.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry - thailand sounds like China in those regards - but paying companies for legitimate time saving services in third party industries (eg visa renewals)  as opposed to perpetuating a destructive practice in the industry you work in is slightly different in my mind.  I do however agree that there is no black and white and in some circumstances one does have to think about their own interests and what is relevant to them.

RE

[geesbert]

David: Then the AD should bill for this work, not rip it off me. Why should I become more expensive, just because the AD had to look for other photographers than me?

[David WM]

It sounds like you did the right thing getting rid of the AD. Was probably just unscrupulous, maybe had a chip on his shoulder thinking that you get paid too much and wants some of what is yours. Not a productive way to develop a relationship with you.

David: Then the AD should bill for this work, not rip it off me. Why should I become more expensive, just because the AD had to look for other photographers than me?