kick back

[lisa_r]

Spitball
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A spitball is an illegal baseball pitch in which the ball has been altered by the application of saliva, petroleum jelly, or some other foreign substance.
Such a pitch presents an additional challenge to the hitter because it causes the ball to move atypically during its approach due to the altered wind-resistance and weight on one side of the ball.

[Kumar]

[quote name='ThierryH' date='May 16 2009, 12:27 PM' post='284066'

I can imagine that you know the law quite well, in Singapore.

[/quote]

No personal experience! I've been there a few dozen times, and was struck by the speed at which the law moves. Also, as you noted, appeals from Prime Ministers and Presidents are routinely ignored. I recall one incident about fifteen years ago, when a young American was flogged for spray-painting cars with graffiti. Clinton couldn't do a thing about it.

Cheers,
Kumar

[Frank Doorhof]

I think it's very simple.
Do you want the job, yes or no.
If you don't pass it and expect no further jobs from that guy, if you want to make money and get more work from him, share the 10% and raise your fee by 10% next time he/she hires you.

In the end it's all very simple, smile and take the hit.
Next time raise your fee and smile the real smile.

Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.

[mcfoto]

Hi All,

Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now

I just received this memo from  one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!

Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!

Des

[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]

Hi Des,
Thanks for this. I heard that Fairfax was cutting back. If I go to my suppliers and ask for a 15% discount, I really wonder what they will say . On the other subject of an AD asking for a 10% kickback - we've heard of this, though thank goodness, we've never been asked - I think they probably know better.  Talk about setting bad precedents for the industry.
Denis

[ericstaud]

I think it's very simple.
Do you want the job, yes or no.
If you don't pass it and expect no further jobs from that guy, if you want to make money and get more work from him, share the 10% and raise your fee by 10% next time he/she hires you.

In the end it's all very simple, smile and take the hit.
Next time raise your fee and smile the real smile.

Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.

Is it so simple?  Getting involved in the likely illegal and definitely unethical practices of one art director who's taking advantage of others.  It's no different than giving the mafia their cut of "protection" money to be allowed to stay in business.  It's very clear to an advertising agency, or the agencies client, that art directors taking kickbacks is not in their best interests.  It means the art director is not choosing the photographer with the right work at the right price, they are instead looking for an unethical photographer who's willing to "play ball".  Any agency here in Los Angeles would fire an art director found to be doing this, and would also cease working with the photographers involved.

This practice is not common here in the United States.  It would be considered a rare exception to standard practice, and could put your business and reputation at great risk.

[ericstaud]

From the Cornell University Law School:

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks

"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”

Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.

See White-collar crime."

[mcfoto]

From the Cornell University Law School:

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks

"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”

Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.

See White-collar crime."

Thank you for this!
Denis

[Toby1014]

Is it so simple?  Getting involved in the likely illegal and definitely unethical practices of one art director who's taking advantage of others.  It's no different than giving the mafia their cut of "protection" money to be allowed to stay in business.  It's very clear to an advertising agency, or the agencies client, that art directors taking kickbacks is not in their best interests.  It means the art director is not choosing the photographer with the right work at the right price, they are instead looking for an unethical photographer who's willing to "play ball".  Any agency here in Los Angeles would fire an art director found to be doing this, and would also cease working with the photographers involved.

This practice is not common here in the United States.  It would be considered a rare exception to standard practice, and could put your business and reputation at great risk.

Eric this is so true.

It is pure and simple bribery; unethical business and everyone here should distance themselves from photographers like Frank Dorhoff and Andre Napier and their way of morality.

Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.

I hope Elinchrom and Leaf are reading this thread and distance themselves from Mr. Dorhoff - encouraging fellow photographers to get involved in bribery should have you banned from every forum.

Andre, I would worry if some photographer you "won" a job from would send this link to the IRS, I think you could be in deep trouble.

The funny part of this thread is Paul More buying a gun for his client, I wonder what a psychoanalyst would think of this story - or perhaps it is just protection from the mafia who also wants a cut of the deal  

Stefan you did the right thing and protected your business and name in the long run - bravo.

T

[lisa_r]

Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.

I guess I don't consider paying bribes to be "people skills."

Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free

Also, I don't run my business from a position of desperation. (read: I will not do whatever I *imagine* the next underhanded businessman might do in order to get some work.) I believe I would run it into the ground if that were the case. Like I said earlier Frank, what if you did the job and next time this AD says: times are tough, so now we are asking for 50%, every time you work?? "It's protection money - I'm protecting you from losing the job."

[evonzz]

From the Cornell University Law School:

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks

"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”

Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.

See White-collar crime."

so according to this definition, the kick back only has to be a portion of profit not the total billing? thats not so steep then is it?  .......  

as i write from shanghai, its funny to read so much surprise at what is really a very common practice here in China - one i do not resort to , i might add, as aside from the moral dilemma, it does absolutely nothing to improve and stimulate real creative development of individuals or the industry as a whole....and god knows this industry here still needs developing.

[Frank Doorhof]

What a response......jeez

First of all.
The term kick back is not know by me.
What I got from what was posted is that a certain AD has a job offer but has one condition, he wants 10% for getting you that job.
In that case you will have to choose for yourself what you want to do.

In other words if the AD is hiring the photographer for a job and he asks 10% for getting you the job I don't see this as MAFFIA practice.
It's not 100% clean of course but MAFFIA ?
The TS asked what to do, my answer was simple if you want the job you will do it, if you don't want the job don't.
I know that if it's not ILLEGAL I would have no problems with it if the job is something I really want.
IF IT'S ILLEGAL or CONTRACT BREACH I would NEVER EVER do it.

But again I don't know the term kick back as the discription given a few posts above this one.
In my mind the TS just asked what to do if someone that has a job for him wants 10% "finders-fee" in that case I see no problem.

@Lisa,
I never got the intention from the TS that this was the case.
If he/she would do it that way the answer is simple, shoot it yourself.
However again, and I really stress this, if it's seen as a simple "finders-fee" with no bad intentions I see no problem.

To make things clear I'm not connected to an agency, or bureau.
The work I do is all free lance so there are no contracts (except between me and the client or the person hiring me (in this case that would be the AD)), no middleman etc.
IF I were conected with a bureau I would of course obbey to their rules.
But I write my own invoices so again if it's a good coorperation and a "finders-fee" I see no problem.

@Toby,
I don't know what I ever did to you except maybe you're green with envy because those responses are WAY WAY out of line and totally uncalled for.
The coorperation I have with Elinchrom and in smaller form with Leaf is based on mutual respect and trust.
Something that you will have to learn I guess, especially the respect thing.
Normally that happens when you grow up........
Sorry for the blund response I'm normally a bit more "civil" but this is way out of line and borders insult and to be honest I don't have to take that from a nobody.

[evonzz]

Hi All,

Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now

I just received this memo from  one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!

Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!

Des

[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]

good to see them being honest. shame they didnt realise the aussie dollar actually been getting better....

[heinrichvoelkel]

@ Frank: in the European Union bribery, even at business level, is ILLEGAL. ( I mean not only bribing legislative powers is illegal)

@ OP/ Stefan: in Germany the Anti-Corruption law is part of the criminal code and offenses can be punished with jail time. You could be prosecuted for bribing the AD if a prosecuter wishes to open a case on this. Just remember the Siemens case not so long ago.

Technically ( by law)  everything offered to a business partner for free in order to gain an advantage can be considered bribery.

[Rick_Allen]

I heard a rumor that fairfax was going to go to a local photo-school and use the students to shoot stories for free. All under the guise of nurturing talent.

[Frank Doorhof]

@ Frank: in the European Union bribery, even at business level, is ILLEGAL. ( I mean not only bribing legislative powers is illegal)

I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10% is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.

Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.
My response was purely for those situations were an agency wants 10% more because it's a bigger job or a client that can give you more work in the future.

AGAIN doing something ILLEGAL or in this case doing something like a payment off the papers is not something I would advise or do.

My response was again purely based on the idea I got from the first post that normally they bill you for ammount X only and for this client they will bill you ammount X plus 10% of your fee.

In that case I really don't see anything wrong, and especially not worth the ridicilous attack to me as a person by Toby.
Again I don't know the term kick back as it was described later on, in that case my response would be different of course.
Risking your reputation or business for a job is NEVER a good thing.

[heinrichvoelkel]

I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10%, is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.

Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.

Think about it. Why should the guy/ AD ask for 10% of the photographers share if he has to write a bill? He want s the money cash for sure. It would be easier for the agency to mark up the photographers bill by 10 % and pass it to the AD, if the whole think would be a legal way to make money.

And the whole issue is about ethics, business ethics. With one AD it is 10% in greens, for the next one you pay the hooker or the white residue around the nostrils? "Finders-fee"!? Just asking.

[ThierryH]

it would definitively help "Toby1014" to live in one of these countries where briberies/kickbacks and other under-the-table-money are common practices to get things done, to see things under a different light. Life is not that easy and simple for all, sometimes one has to adapt to the existing "culture" and habits.

Am I culprit if I am ready to pay 500 Thai Bath to a corrupt policeman (for locals it's 50 Bath), instead of having to drive through Bangkok to the police station to pay my fine and get my passport back, with 1/2 day lost? Am I culprit if I hire a middle-man and pay him 5'000 Thai Bath to get my 1-year visa in a day and without hassle, instead of having to go myself a few times without the certainty to get it and being asked each time different documents? Am I culprit to make use of a fictive job contract (paid for) to get a working permit, when otherwise it is almost impossible under certain circumstances? I can continue with many other examples. Therefore, it does not surprise me to have such practices in China: it happens at all levels, in photography and elsewhere, and I have experienced it all the time.

Coming from Germany, though, it sounds a bit different and certainly not the norm, IMO. In other words, I am convinced that most of the jobs to be done can be won the "normal" way, with the talent and skills of the photographers. I certainly won't accept to pay this "fee".

But would I have to work in Asia/South-East Asia, I am not really sure what would be my response: it is too often the only way to get forward, being talented or not.

Difficult question with no black or white answer, for me.

Thierry

as i write from shanghai, its funny to read so much surprise at what is really a very common practice here in China - one i do not resort to , i might add, as aside from the moral dilemma, it does absolutely nothing to improve and stimulate real creative development of individuals or the industry as a whole....and god knows this industry here still needs developing.

[Frank Doorhof]

Think about it. Why should the guy/ AD ask for 10% of the photographers share if he has to write a bill? He want s the money cash for sure. It would easier for the agency to mark up the photographers bill by 10 % if the whole think would be a legal way to make money.

And the whole issue is about ethics, business ethics. With one AD it is 10% in greens, for the next one you pay the hooker or the white residue around the nostrils? "Finders-fee"!? Just asking.

As mentioned before I'm not connected to an agency.
I can imagine that agencies will normally charge a certain ammount or percentage that's fixed.
In my view in this case it was 10% higher because it was a bigger/more interesting/higher profile customer.
In that case you have to think about it, go for the job and earn less or loose the job and maybe also some more work in that segment.

But again that's how I read it, and I could 100% be wrong.
That's why I changed my post that if indeed it was an under the tafel transaction I would NOT advise it or DO it.

When you explain it like this I see exactly what you mean, but I was thinking totally different......
Maybe I'm silently hoping that most people are good in their intentions.
It's always difficult to get everything 100% right in three lines on a forum, so that's were my idea of the case came from.

[heinrichvoelkel]

@ Thierry: I see your point, but if you do this "bribery" in order to make better business for a German company, the German state can prosecute you for doing this, because IT IS against German Law. Even when it happened somewhere else on the planet. Again, Siemens is a prominent case for this.

I don't think it is only a question of bending morality a little bit, because: Where do you draw the line? What is immoral? What would you not do, to get things done? No offense, just asking!

[heinrichvoelkel]

I'm pretty sure the OP means with agency, the agency the AD works for, not the photogs agency/ rep/ whatever.