kick back

[geesbert]

today i was in discussion about a decently sized, interesting job, when the guy from the agency, which I haven't worked for yet and who is also the art director for this job, suddenly mentions that he is expecting a 10% share of my fee, as a provision to get me in contact with the client. I told him to get lost and that no way in my life I would do that. I guess I am not getting this one...

since then I asked around, just to learn how common this is and that it is strange that I havent encountered it yet. so, is it really common? what to do? forget about those jobs or try to arrange yourself with those leeches?

[AndreNapier]

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[Snook]

Yeh One shitty end of the business. Years ago it used to Coke,Alcohol,Hookers and Discos...:+}
RE: Miami Beach...:+]
Still is in some groups.
I try everyday to make my business a One man job b/c I hate to have to pay some lazy *** for the in between.
Most Big agencies are Pathetic and just copy other Big ads, Wow really difficult and they get paid Big $$ for offering a copy of other campaigns.
Happens to me everyday.. I get a couple of Vogues pictures or ads and they want me to copy it but with their shitty clothing..
But Like Andre mentioned, you might be gaining 90% of what you did not have. But for the guy to mention it so obviuosly is crooked if you ask me!!
These guys should be taken out back and their legs Broken like the good ole days...:+}

Snook

This post has been edited by a Moderator. Do not use profane offensive language in this Forum.[/i]

[lisa_r]

Does sound sleazy. I may have taken to job if it looked good and if the agency is one where I would want future work. Since they will likely take months to pay you after you've done the work, you would have plenty of time to ask someone else at the agency (maybe someone in accounting who would be getting your invoice) if this 10% "taste" as Tony Soprano would call it, was normal at their agency. There's a good chance this agent you were interacting with was going under the table, and would be reprimanded/fired for doing this. But maybe this is normal for them, in which case do the job and charge 10% more next time you work with them.

[feppe]

Does sound sleazy. I may have taken to job if it looked good and if the agency is one where I would want future work. Since they will likely take months to pay you after you've done the work, you would have plenty of time to ask someone else at the agency (maybe someone in accounting who would be getting your invoice) if this 10% "taste" as Tony Soprano would call it, was normal at their agency. There's a good chance this agent you were interacting with was going under the table, and would be reprimanded/fired for doing this. But maybe this is normal for them, in which case do the job and charge 10% more next time you work with them.

And what would be the benefit to geesbert for such investigation? At best he'd get a possibly influential AD fired (and not get the job), at worst he'll burn bridges with the AD, the agency, and possibly local industry heads (and not get the job).

[AndreNapier]

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[lisa_r]

I don't know if I'd call it an "investigation" as much as a simple, honest question. No? If you are asking here on a forum, why not ask someone at the agency instead, like maybe the person who is responsible for paying people and who sees other photographers invoices.
Anyway feppe, it's valid research, IMO. I don't go around giving anyone a percentage of things unless I know it's legit. He's already lost the job ("burned the bridge") by saying no to the fee, so why not ask instead next time?
What if the agent had said 30%? Would you ask if it's normal business practice then?
I have my doubts about just how "influential" this AD is going to be in the long run if he goes around car jacking people in the industry. He won't last long. At least I don't think he would in NY. He'd be fired a few times, and then he'd have a hard time finding work. People talk.
But again, if this is common at their advertising agency (they all get 10% when they connect photographer with client), then that's okay if you want to play spit ball with them. Like I said, charge an extra 10% Spit Ball fee next time you work for them, and you'll be Even Steven.

I don't think I have ever lost a job by asking legitimate questions about billing.

[pixjohn]

Sleazy? How about its illegal! I had an agency person ask me for a kick back once, and told the art buyer to take a leap. I still worked with other art directors and buyers at the agency. I never said anything to anyone, but a few months later they where gone. With work this slow I would have maybe taken the offer, and then asked after getting payment for an invoice from them and SS# for tax purposes. See how fast they come up with that info.

BTW, if someone at the agency is getting a cut from your check you generally get the money faster as well since it becomes not just my money but our money. I have to be very corrupted person since I do not see nothing sleazy in anybody getting a cut and I even report it on my IRS form. Maybe I have spend to much time in industrial construction business before.
Andre

[Snook]

BTW, if someone at the agency is getting a cut from your check you generally get the money faster as well since it becomes not just my money but our money. I have to be very corrupted person since I do not see nothing sleazy in anybody getting a cut and I even report it on my IRS form. Maybe I have spend to much time in industrial construction business before.
Andre

Then I guess they are not booking you for your talent but for the kickbacks.

Usually agency or reps get a %. Not some sleeze bag in and advertising agency.
I guess the models have to sleep with the photographer mentality is what your saying also?
Hopefully all the sleezy people will be banished in 12 21 2012... Cannot wait.
Unfortunately I do know what you mean and it is a catch 22 situation, but these dirt bags should be fired and if the client knew about it maybe they would change agency.
Conforming to it just makes it worse I have to say, but I do understand why, to maybe get the job.. But.... Are you sleeping ok in the night?
AD from agency are like sleezy model bookers.. they last about a couple of months then off to the next agency.
I truly Hate these sleeze bags but they are a factor...
Snook

[SeanFS]

today i was in discussion about a decently sized, interesting job, when the guy from the agency, which I haven't worked for yet and who is also the art director for this job, suddenly mentions that he is expecting a 10% share of my fee, as a provision to get me in contact with the client. I told him to get lost and that no way in my life I would do that. I guess I am not getting this one...

since then I asked around, just to learn how common this is and that it is strange that I havent encountered it yet. so, is it really common? what to do? forget about those jobs or try to arrange yourself with those leeches?

I say pay the money and see where it goes, try to put your fee up as much as you can above normal to cover it or fudge it in costs . It might be a one off , and if you don't do it someone else will.
 I have only had to do this once, and it has gained me a  solid regular client at no further commissions ( or "tastes" , I like that) so it was a positive outcome, although I was dubious at the time .
In the past I have had a client complaining to me about the cost of photography then to later find the agency  he was working through had been marking it up nearly 100%! . The agency ( and me)  lost the work eventually but through no fault of mine. Of course  fairly standard practise in some areas and commission based clients like marketers or print brokers will mark work up every time, but seldom by that much. Very interesting discussion thread !

[Kumar]

Yes, of course, if you don't do it, someone else surely will. But do you want to do it? Where does it stop? Today it's 10%. Tomorrow it could be 30% or something else. Supposing the AD wants you to shoot a major campaign in Singapore, which would get you enough money to retire, or at least buy two Phase One P65+ backs at list price without going through secret handshakes. The 'taste' is to carry a small package of white powder for the AD while he's there with you.

Just remember, it always starts with small things.

Cheers,
Kumar

[DesW]

Hi All,

Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now

I just received this memo from  one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!

Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!

Des

[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]

[gwhitf]

'Dis has got to be thu best Thread eva' on this forum...

All da' while I tought it wuz gonna be Doug Peterson wantin' 10 percent back from every job youz shot wit his P45 rental.

Respectfully,

Tony Soprano
Waste Management Inc.

[michaelnotar]

well i dont like that they expect it, arrogance ticks me off. i do offer a 5-10% first time client discount that seems to help out. i remember getting one once from a CD printing place and thought it was a nice gesture. and i use it to get a $1040 job in to the 900s just to make it seem reasonable...one of those visual bars...985 seems affordable...1035.....he wants over 1000 dollars! get out! (im in a small town btw).

[paulmoorestudio]

You pay or the next guy will. Plain and simple. There is less good jobs then good photogs now days. It holds true in any industry and unless you are THE GUY that everybody wants, you consider it a finder fee and you pay.
I pay referral fees and do verbally advertise it to all my clients. It is much cheaper than advertising. To me I am not loosing 10% but I am gaining 90% I would never have otherwise.
Little financial incentive goes very long way. People are way more likely to show you images to other potential customers and brag about their great experience with you.
With AD's and others if it is not money than it is the great food and entertainment which generally cost more at the end.
Andre

there is a big difference between being told upfront to kick back some money and treating your good client to some stuff down the road..or offer a commision/finder fee.
I would say no to the first..but I have given some pretty nice gifts of appreciation to AD's who continued to direct jobs my way.  Nowadays most agencies  make you sign a vender agreement that says you will not give any gifts to anyone..but funny how the props disappear after a shoot..
I have no problem if you want to give referral fees, you are calling the shots and that is how it ought to be.. hell I will give anyone reading this  10% if you actually responsible for getting me a job..a big ole national campaign at full tilt fees.. I would do as much as 25%.. This is what we do, it aint art or charity work..it's business.

[ThierryH]

Well, I would avoid this kind of "jokes" in Singapore: they certainly wont laugh about it, if caught.

The last one doing this was an Australian national and he lost his life in the Changi jail, one morning at 6.00am about 2 years ago: it happened that I just arrived that morning at that time at Changi airport: it gives you a strange feeling, believe me, and no way to buy oneself out of this nightmare.

Cheers,
Thierry

The 'taste' is to carry a small package of white powder for the AD while he's there with you.

Kumar

[Kumar]

Well, I would avoid this kind of "jokes" in Singapore: they certainly wont laugh about it, if caught.

The last one doing this was an Australian national and he lost his life in the Changi jail, one morning at 6.00am about 2 years ago: it happened that I just arrived that morning at that time at Changi airport: it gives you a strange feeling, believe me, and no way to buy oneself out of this nightmare.

Cheers,
Thierry

Wasn't a joke. I was trying to illustrate how things can, and do happen. Not all the people executed for drug related offences were professional smugglers. The death penalty is mandatory for some offences, even in such a case where the trial judge accepted there was "no direct evidence that he knew the capsules contained diamorphine".

As I said, it starts with the small things - like a 10% kickback.

Cheers,
Kumar

[ThierryH]

Dear Kumar,

I can imagine that you know the law quite well, in Singapore. I was simply warning some who might not know it.
While death penalty for drug offences is also mandatory in Indonesia (or some other countries) and handed-over quite easily, there is always and still a possibility to "buy" oneself out of this situation, not in Singapore. Even a personal intervention of AU Prime Minister Howard to the Singaporean governement in favor of this AU citizen (who was btw carrying it for his own consumption and not a professinal smuggler, and who was in transit before returning home) did change nothing and the sentence was carried out without even a delay.

People should know it.

Cheers,
Thierry

Wasn't a joke. I was trying to illustrate how things can, and do happen. Not all the people executed for drug related offences were professional smugglers. The death penalty is mandatory for some offences, even in such a case where the trial judge accepted there was "no direct evidence that he knew the capsules contained diamorphine".

As I said, it starts with the small things - like a 10% kickback.

Cheers,
Kumar

[marc gerritsen]

my stock agent in the US gets 50%
my rep in the US I think puts at least 60% on top of my fee
my stock agent in Europe gets 50%
my rep in China will get 30%
my worldwide rep must also put at least 60% on top.
After all that my wife gets 90%
aaah the business of photography!!!

[AndreNapier]

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