Mamiya 645 DF prototype

[Nemo]

Mamiya/Phase One have presented a new prototype of an all new full digital design for their 645 system:

http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ca...a-645-df-2.html

It includes a grip.

(Sorry, the source is in Spanish).

I find the design unergonomical and ugly... far from the clear design of the Leica S2. Even the Pentax 645 looks as based on film MF cameras...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml

.

[PLLove]

Mamiya/Phase One have presented a new prototype of an all new full digital design for their 645 system:

http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/ca...a-645-df-2.html

It includes a grip.

(Sorry, the source is in Spanish).

I find the design unergonomical and ugly... far from the clear design of the Leica S2. Even the Pentax 645 looks as based on film MF cameras...

The camera looks incredibly bulky!  

The leaf shutter lens is great to finally see!  I can't wait to get my hands on one.  The 80 and the 150mm LS would be great!!

-Pat

[jmvdigital]

This was discussed quite a bit in another thread on GetDPI. The photo is a mockup, not real.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6412

[Nemo]

Yes, it is a mockup. Sorry for the mistake. It isn't a working prototype yet...

I don't understand why they don't follow the Mamiya ZD way...

[BJL]

Real photos of the new Mamiya 645DF/Phase One 645AF MkII body from PIE 2009 are here
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml
thanks to Bernard Languillier.

The body itself seems quite compact (ignoring the VF gooseneck): it is the backs that add the bulk, and the need for that long VF extension.

[sdai]

It's looking fine, keep in mind the 645DF is a standard (FF) 645 camera while the S2 is only half medium format, it has to house a much larger mirror box, prism etc.

[BJNY]

Is there an AF-ON button falling at the thumb,
and on the vertical grip as well?

[BJL]

... it's a Mamiya AFDIII body that's now called a DF, nothing more, nothing less.

Where did you learn that there is no difference except the name? I have read reports of several changes, two plusses and a minus:
+ Automatic detection that a leaf shutter lens is in place, disabling the focal plane shutter (and maybe the earlier 645AF bodies do not work at all with leaf shutter lenses)
- It is usable only with digitial backs, not film backs. Why? Perhaps because ...
+ It is usable with sensor formats up to the full 41.5x56mm of 645 film format. Some MF bodies cannot do that because of a film gate with 41.5x56mm opening that the front of the sensor must fit into or get flush against, so the non-light sensitive stuff at the edges of the sensor gets in the way reducing the maximum usable sensor frame size by a few mm. (That might have been why sensors stayed at about 49x37mm max until recently; waiting for enough bodies to accept larger sensors.)
The last plus is less clear than the first two items though.

[yaya]

+ It is usable with sensor formats up to the full 41.5x56mm of 645 film format. Some MF bodies cannot do that because of a film gate with 41.5x56mm opening that the front of the sensor must fit into or get flush against, so the non-light sensitive stuff at the edges of the sensor gets in the way reducing the maximum usable sensor frame size by a few mm. (That might have been why sensors stayed at about 49x37mm max until recently; waiting for enough bodies to accept larger sensors.)

I believe the film gate size is defined by the film magazine and not by the opening in the body, but anyway, all current 645/6x6 bodies can accommodate 56mm sensors, with no issues.

[sdai]

Is there an AF-ON button falling at the thumb,
and on the vertical grip as well?

There's no AF-ON button at the thumb, what the spec sheets says is there are AF lock buttons on the body itself AND on the grip.

[BJL]

... all current 645/6x6 bodies can accommodate 56mm sensors, with no issues.

All, or just most current bodies? The Hy6 body has no "gate problem", and I am sure the Hasselblad H3 digital-only bodies are fine, but have read mixed reports about other bodies.

Anyway, the leaf shutter interface is the most obvious and needed upgrade.

[amsp]

According to mamiya.com the battery grip can only be used with the new DF, is this true? If so that's pretty disappointing, I was expecting it to be backwards compatible.

[ziocan]

Sorry but these AFDIII/DF bodies should cost maybe $2K at most. There is nothing special to them that demands $4K+ prices.

absolutely, 2k at most. I would concede 2700$ because of the prism with light meter.
but that is all about it.
the current canon 5dII, sony a900 and Nik d700 are much better bodies with tighter tolerances for the build, more sophisticates electronics and mechanics and packed with at least  the double amount of features, not mentioning a sensor and they run for 3K.

[ziocan]

According to mamiya.com the battery grip can only be used with the new DF, is this true? If so that's pretty disappointing, I was expecting it to be backwards compatible.

I would not expect anything different. they do their best for eventually squeeze every penny out of us.
they are not succeeding with me though.

[PLLove]

I would not expect anything different. they do their best for eventually squeeze every penny out of us.
they are much succeeding with me though.

Yeah, I would like the LS lens, but I will try and find a used AFDIII once the lens are released.  Knowing Mamiya, I'm not holding my breath!

I still want to see this mysterious 45-90mm f4.5.

-P

[yaya]

All, or just most current bodies? The Hy6 body has no "gate problem", and I am sure the Hasselblad H3 digital-only bodies are fine, but have read mixed reports about other bodies.

Anyway, the leaf shutter interface is the most obvious and needed upgrade.

OK then:-)

"Most" will mean H1, H2, 645AFD/ AFDII/ AFDIII, Contax, 5XX V-series, Arcbody, FlexBody, Bronica ETRSi/ SQAi, Leaf AFi and Rollei/ Sinar Hy6. Let us if you heard about any problematic bodies and we will investigate.

thanks, yair

[mcfoto]

I have the AFDII body & the AFDIII doesn't interest me because it does not have a separate focus control. I have posted about this before & I have never had any problems with the AFDII. I have heard that the 645 DF has a separate focus control? What I mean is that you can program the shutter release to just be the shutter release. My Canon cameras have been set like this for years as did my ZD camera. Loosing the film back makes sense. I sold my 645 AFD body for $400.00 USD on eBay last year & there are plenty of those 645 AFD kits on eBay. So if this camera has faster AF , separate focus control, vertical grip, leaf shutter lenses I would be interested. The difference between 1/500 & 1/800 is a half stop. Going from 1/125 to 1/500 is 2 stops well enough for flash fill outdoors. The Canon @ 1/250X works great anyhow. Ever since Phase started working with Mamiya things have been improving. Before 2006 not much was happening with Mamiya except for the ZD camera which took 15 months to come to market. Now that Phase is in control I think this will speed things up. I have owned the Mamiya AFD system since 2000. Before that a 500cm & to be honest I had more problems with the 500CM. Our choice is getting smaller with only 3 systems ( being made ):H3D ( closed ), Mamiya ( open ) & Hy6 ( closed  Sinar/Leaf ). Of those 3 only the H3D & Mamiya have a 28 mm. And only Mamiya can take a Sinar, Leaf, Phase, & Imacon back.  I also remember that when the Phase body ( AFDIII ) was announced that there would be a another new body coming next year ( 2009).
Denis

[Nemo]

The MF market is a mess.

Even the Hasselblad HD3 camera is based on a film camera concept. The Mamiyas don't look better, except for the ZD, which was frozen. The Pentax 645D prototype has the same form and shape, not particuarly ergonomic and balanced. Only the new full format 645 backs match the original format of the lenses... (the Leaf/Sinar backs are far from true 6x6 backs yet...).

The more I think about it, the more I like the Leica S2 concept:

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links

.

[mcfoto]

The MF market is a mess.

Even the Hasselblad HD3 camera is based on a film camera concept. The Mamiyas don't look better, except for the ZD, which was frozen.

The more I think about it, the more I see how good is the Leica S2 concept:

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/03/pma-20...a-s2.html#links

.

I just don't get the S2 with a chip of 30x45mm it sits in the middle. Current digital backs are 36x48, 36x56 (Leaf) & 40.4x 53.9 ( P65+). I just saw a mint Aptus 22 for around the 6700 USD mark & these are both available in the Mamiya/H mounts chip size 36x48. I think if the S2 wanted to be different they would go to a CMOS sensor & go for an iso  range of 100-6400. This would capture the wedding market guys.

[mcfoto]

http://dpnow.com/5830.html
Quote
80mm leaf shutter lens
Main Specifications
Compatible cameras: 645DF
645AFDIII (requires upgrading) Optical construction: 5 groups / 6 elements Angle of view: 47 degrees Mininltnn aperture: 22 Minimum focusing distance: 70cm Maximum magnification ratio: 0.15 Area covered: 377 x 279mm Equivalent focal length in 35mlll: 50mm (for the 645 film image size)

The AFDIII needs an upgrade to use the LS lens.

The vertical grip will only fit the 645 DF & takes AA batteries. Also seems to be able to trigger flash units ( could be a pocket wizzard? )