Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x  (Read 44551 times)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2009, 11:53:25 pm »

Quote from: shelby_lewis
I'll bite.

As someone who shot various nikon bodies at weddings (as a test)... in the field... for half a season last year I can attest that skin (in my humble perceptions!) is something that Nikon doesn't do well. Canon has it's probs too (reds), but I found that under just about any condition that skin was a problem for nikon. Jeff Ascough, one of the most noted wedding photogs in the world, has similar conclusions. From what I can tell... he WANTED nikon to work well for him as the d3/d700 are such great wedding cams (my observations, not his words), but couldn't get skin tones that were pleasing on a regular basis without considerable post work.

Would you say that this is influenced by the raw converter used?

I have no problem with people liking the Aptus better, but at least the D3x should be converted with a decent converter. ACR is  clearly not even in the top 3 converters for Nikon files.

Using one of these popular car comparisons, if the D3x were a BMW M3 and the Aptus a Ferrari, converting D3x files with ACR would be like fitting the M3 with Ford Fusion tyres...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:00:12 am by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

shelby_lewis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2009, 12:08:40 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Would you say that this is influenced by the raw converter used?

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course... I don't think you can rule out any part of the chain. But there are common tendencies that I've seen (which should be considered as MY perceptions, not the whole industry's)...  and I will not say, for a moment, that you can't get good color out of Nikon or Canon. You can. For me, it's just more work than I'd like. Skin just never looks "right". Like in my previous posts, I'll be the first to say much of what we're all talking about boils down to perception and personal preference. I don't like the moiré any more than you guys do... but I don't like the look of the 35mm files as well.

So, this isn't an argument as much as it is a statement of what I perceive, based on what I've experienced in the past (or as Eric would say, "Color BS")

Horses for courses.
Logged

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2009, 12:10:32 am »

Quote from: Snook
I do not beleive the color BS because most files are tweaked through raw and then in photoshop.
Atleast in my line of work.

One thing I have HATED since moving to MFD is the MOIRE. what a pain in the ass.
The only real way to get rid of some of it is processing 2 files which is a pain and many times the pattern is still there.. UFFFFFFF.
Snook

Well, the skintone issue is real whether you believe it or not.  For whatever reason, the DSLR camera profiles don't hold up well under variable lighting or various ethnicities; a skin that looks great from shadow through highlight areas outside under an overcast sky can turn to magenta-ish on skin highlights and green-ish on skin shadows indoors -- and that's more of a PITA to fix in post than moire.   By contrast, skin out of my P back always looks like real skin regardless of the light it was shot under and regardless of the person's ethnicity.  

As for pattern moire on your DB, if you get one that has smaller sensuls -- meaning a higher resolution back -- pattern moire becomes much less of an issue.  Color moire is a different animal and agreed, it is a PITA to deal with.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:13:37 am by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

shelby_lewis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2009, 12:12:56 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I have no problem with people liking the Aptus better, but at least the D3x should be converted with a decent converter. ACR is  clearly not even in the top 3 converters for Nikon files.

totally agree here... and I wish I had the gear to do the tests.    

I will say this. I find the d3x a very compelling camera. Even given the nit-pick of my previous replies, it is definitely in contention as a possible upgrade for me. I wish it had a bit more of the look i see from MF... but as a total package, it's about as close to an "mf-killer" as there is out there. And surely it's a better all-arounder.

Logged

shelby_lewis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2009, 12:22:27 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Well, the skintone issue is real whether you believe it or not.  For whatever reason, the DSLR camera profiles don't hold up well under variable lighting or various ethnicities; a skin that looks great from shadow through highlight areas outside under an overcast sky can turn to magenta-ish on skin highlights and green-ish on skin shadows indoors -- and that's more of a PITA to fix in post than moire.

Shooting so many weddings has made this abundantly clear to me. Mixed lighting is a DSLR's worst nightmare. Going through an entire wedding and setting WB when you can't even find a consistent skin-tone gradient is oh so fun.     OK... so I'm not going to shoot a wedding with a phase back, so you've got me there. But the color response of a dslr in those situations is pretty telling.

To play devil's advocate though... I've noticed that the shear resolution and bit-depth of the backs (looking at other people's files... I don't own a back) sure seems to make them very sensitive to color temp. Skin always looks quite natural to me, but the temp of the light is rendered so precisely that carelessness in lighting technique is exposed pretty quickly. This, to me, though is more about precision in lighting technique than it is about color response by the sensor.
Logged

HarperPhotos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1309
    • http://www.harperphoto.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2009, 12:39:29 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Well, the skintone issue is real whether you believe it or not.  For whatever reason, the DSLR camera profiles don't hold up well under variable lighting or various ethnicities; a skin that looks great from shadow through highlight areas outside under an overcast sky can turn to magenta-ish on skin highlights and green-ish on skin shadows indoors -- and that's more of a PITA to fix in post than moire.   By contrast, skin out of my P back always looks like real skin regardless of the light it was shot under and regardless of the person's ethnicity.  

As for pattern moire on your DB, if you get one that has smaller sensuls -- meaning a higher resolution back -- pattern moire becomes much less of an issue.  Color moire is a different animal and agreed, it is a PITA to deal with.

Cheers,

Hi jack,

Some months ago I was given the opportunity to try the new Leaf Aptus-II 10 which is 56 million pixels.

I did a similar sent up with “the shirt from hell “ and again the colour moiré was prevalent.

Digital cameras back reps go ghostly white when I bring out this shirt.

Cheers

Simon
Logged
Simon Harper
Harper Photographics Ltd
http://www.harperphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/harper.photographics

Auckland, New Zealand

bdp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 266
    • http://www.bendearnleyphotography.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2009, 12:46:03 am »

Quote
Digital cameras back reps go ghostly white when I bring out this shirt.

It looks more like they go a pinkish magenta  
Logged

TMARK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1841
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2009, 12:52:34 am »

Quote from: shelby_lewis
Shooting so many weddings has made this abundantly clear to me. Mixed lighting is a DSLR's worst nightmare. Going through an entire wedding and setting WB when you can't even find a consistent skin-tone gradient is oh so fun.     OK... so I'm not going to shoot a wedding with a phase back, so you've got me there. But the color response of a dslr in those situations is pretty telling.

To play devil's advocate though... I've noticed that the shear resolution and bit-depth of the backs (looking at other people's files... I don't own a back) sure seems to make them very sensitive to color temp. Skin always looks quite natural to me, but the temp of the light is rendered so precisely that carelessness in lighting technique is exposed pretty quickly. This, to me, though is more about precision in lighting technique than it is about color response by the sensor.

The skin tone thing is just a non-issue for me, a beauty shooter.  I've shot editorial beauty and fashion for years with a 1ds2, Phase backs, and Leaf backs.  The only people who ever complained about the 1ds2 files were retouchers, not really about color, but more the gradations between light and dark.  I roll my own color in C1 color editor or Light Room and can match Canon, Nikon, Phase and Leaf files easily.  I now shoot film (best work flow, costs passed on to the client, best color out of the box) or my Leaf 54s, or for catalogue, a 5D Mark I.

Look up some of BCooter James Russell's posts on MFDB and their annoying color sensitivity/accuracy.  

Logged

Alex MacPherson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • http://alexmacpherson.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2009, 01:32:55 am »

Quote from: TMARK
The skin tone thing is just a non-issue for me, a beauty shooter.  I've shot editorial beauty and fashion for years with a 1ds2, Phase backs, and Leaf backs.  The only people who ever complained about the 1ds2 files were retouchers, not really about color, but more the gradations between light and dark.  I roll my own color in C1 color editor or Light Room and can match Canon, Nikon, Phase and Leaf files easily.  I now shoot film (best work flow, costs passed on to the client, best color out of the box) or my Leaf 54s, or for catalogue, a 5D Mark I.

Look up some of BCooter James Russell's posts on MFDB and their annoying color sensitivity/accuracy.

TMARK

Do you shoot film for beauty?

,,, a budding beauty shooter wants to know,,,  
Logged
Alex MacPherson

Visit My Website

rethmeier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 795
    • http://www.willemrethmeier.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2009, 02:19:06 am »

From my experience the skin color issue is less with beauty.
I believe the reason for this is:
major make-up on the model and the images are retouched heavily afterwords anyway.

Look at all the covers of the magazines!


In the meanwhile I'm very happy with my D3x and I don't miss what I had before with MFDB.

Happy shooting you all!

Best,

Willem.
Logged
Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com

Rick_Allen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 183
    • http://www.rapdigital.net
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2009, 03:22:46 am »

If you look at the grey bars on the colour chart you can see that there is a heaps of blue in the Nikon and blue/mag in the Leaf. If you would like to PM me I'll happily tweek the raw files in their respective convertors to see how close I can get them. I really want to love the nikon but at the moment I dont see it as being much better than the Mark3. I'm looking at a couple for my rental dept. but nikon doesnt seem that interested in me   . Can I ask what profile you used for the color look in Leaf? It looks alot like one of the product profiles. With this camera on Portraits I always suggest AdobeRgb its just more neutral.
Logged
Rick Allen
[url=http://www.rapdigital.ne

paratom

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2009, 03:28:16 am »

Quote from: Anders_HK
Guy,

It is not only you. Some have sensitive eyes, others do not. In the end it is the photos that counts, and MFDB clear lends an upper hand to those who have the eyes.

Sure, Nikon and Canon have improved, by big steps. Yet... above files appear clear, if at all one has the eye. Else just go with a DSLR and be happy!

Yup, people are pixel peeping. Even anxious trying prove DSLR same as MFDB, which it is not. Why should it???  

Then... what does DSLR vs MFDB do for your photos? MFDB lends to slower and more planned photos (even more if you use manual and spot meter, that is fun!), and there is less auto features than DSLR, slower focus that need more planning... ehh... sort of more photographic to folks like me   (but we are all different) . I was a Nikon guy before, but Nikon lost me in digital with all auto features and lack of color etc. They are still not up to as pleasing colors of my Aptus 65. Does it matter? Lets face that it seems though that digital has finally reached a level that also DSLRs can have reasonable pleasing color rendering (with suffice processing), although for a critical eye not yet as pleasing as film was. Ok, that is my impression. Leaf Aptus though already have pleasing colors to my eye, far more than Nikon, and pleasing sort of FILM LIKE appearance, but... it is digital... not film clearly, not look like film   .

Anyways... just some comments to all...

Yair, What about next quantom leap for Leaf? Any thoughts on a real full frame 645 sensor with Foveon like technology? Now that could be something for an amateur like me to upgrade to... if give it a some years and continued $$ coming in, and if still pleasing rendering that Leaf is known for... but not higher resolution than I also can use my good Mamiya lenses that were for film... Thanks!  

Anders

Anders,
some subjects you can shoot slower and more planned (and the somewhat slower pace is one of the things I really like for some things), other subjects are just to fast for a MF-camera and it would be pure luck if you "catch" them with a MF camera.
The other difference is ISO and DOF and lens speed.
If I wanted the same DOF and the same noise quality I could shoot my d3x at ISO 1600 with f1.4, or my Sinar probably with ISO200 (or eventually 400) at probably f2.0 or f2.8.
This makes at least 4 stops difference in flexibility.
Now for the color part its hard for me to comment, overall I would agree that MF delievers great color and color is easy to handle. However I cant say that I find it hard to get the skin color I like with the D3x.
Logged

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2009, 03:36:05 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Well, the skintone issue is real whether you believe it or not.  .................   By contrast, skin out of my P back always looks like real skin regardless of the light it was shot under and regardless of the person's ethnicity.  

As for pattern moire on your DB, if you get one that has smaller sensuls -- meaning a higher resolution back -- pattern moire becomes much less of an issue.  Color moire is a different animal and agreed, it is a PITA to deal with.

Cheers,


With all due respect, this is not necessarily true.  You can line up 7 cameras and under the same lighting, subject, exposure get 7 different results and depending on the lighting, subject and exposure find one is more pleasing than the other.  I am positive on this as I have owned 5 digital backs, 12 dslrs and one digital rangefinder and at one time or another compared one, two, even three cameras to see the results.

I have shot as many different ethnic skintones with different cameras around the world as anyone and can promise you there is no holy grail, though for basic easy to hit color the dslrs are usually much easier.

With mfdb's ambient color shows more in soft subdued light, light overcast, or silked light than it does with direct or hard light, though most digital backs do not like abrupt hard light transitions and tend to throw a magenta curve on skin going from light to dark, usually more noticeable on white translucent skin (every model in NY).

Digital backs overall, and depending on the processor are very sensitive when it comes to ambient color, digital in general reads ambient color different than most films, but digital backs are the worst or best depending on subject.

Still, when you talk "pleasing" color it covers a lot of territory and a lot of different steps.  Step 1 is what you and the client sees in first view, whether it's on the computer or the camera lcd.  Medium format lcd's are almost impossible to read so don't bother showing those to the client, the newer dslrs are quite good.  In fact shoot a d3x, d3, d700 next to a mfdb untethered and show the images to the client.

They will point to then Nikon and say, will you use the "Big" camera for this.

The second step is in processing for web galleries or contact sheets.  That is probably the hardest to produce as you want to get close to the final look without spending 33 hours per shoot day in post.

The third step is the first round of high rez processing and regardless of the processor, nearly all digital requires a certain amount of work in photoshop just to get to a film emulation look.  Once again lighting, subject, backgrounds can make this a fairly easy step or difficult.

The fourth and final step is the final retouching stage and this is the great equalizer.  All digital images from ANY digital camera  if done right can be made to look good to exceptional, though once again it requires local not global corrections and a very refined level of skill.

Bottom line, if you shoot people the dslrs are just easier.  Easier to shoot, easier to process, easier to chose almost any converter.   They may be a little more color dumb, but so was film, though they also don't pick up such fine irregularities that you see every imperfection.

The one exception to this is tungsten.  I do find the p30+ to read tungsten light on skin much better than the dslrs.

As far as pattern moire, digital backs (at least the 5 I've owned will moire on certain patterns at a rate of 20 to 1 compared to the dslrs).

Nothing is harder to remove than pattern moire, color moire can usually be painted out,  and if I am shooting on figure fashion with a db, we must tether and process out high rez on certain garments, knowing there will be issues.  Usually we shoot the session, review the select, shoot close to the same pose again though closer in as to replaced the artifacts with a tighter image.  With challanged garments you must shoot a medium format back tethered to know if the moire is real or an lcd abberation.

With the dslrs we just shoot.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Logged

paratom

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2009, 03:42:34 am »

Ok, this is not mixed light, but I feel the skin here looks just how it was/how I saw it.
Converted in NX2, no color adjustments, WB preset (so not even custom WB)
One thing I have to admit that sometimes I find the skin tones to be slightly yellowish with the Nikon.
Logged

woof75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 581
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2009, 04:22:15 am »

I actually find it to be hard to not get good skin tones from my P21, I used to have all sorts of problems with a 1ds mark 2. I find with skin, if you don't get it right in the converter it's quite hard to fudge later in PS.
Logged

TMARK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1841
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2009, 11:30:50 am »

Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
TMARK

Do you shoot film for beauty?

,,, a budding beauty shooter wants to know,,,  

Yes and no.  I used to shoot 4x5, Chrome (Kodak E100g).  Now I shoot editorials on film, Tri-X, TMax, 400NC.  Commercial beauty clients expect an MFDB and the 30" Polaroid.  For editorials I keep it real with whatevcer suits me, which lately is negative film.
Logged

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2009, 11:33:21 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
With all due respect, this is not necessarily true.  You can line up 7 cameras and under the same lighting, subject, exposure get 7 different results and depending on the lighting, subject and exposure find one is more pleasing than the other.

No argument on the 7 different results Jamie,

But with all due respect, when I shoot people with my P back, the skin color is always great right out of C1, whether I am shooting under strobes in a studio, the sun reflected or diffused outdoors, or indoors under tungsten...  Re 7 results, my experience with DSLR skin color is limited to Canon, Nikon and Leica -- and frankly, none of them can touch my P captures, thought the DMR was perhaps closer than the others, but then it had moire issues...

Re moire.  Perhaps in fashion, pattern moire is more of an issue than color moire -- and admittedly I don't do a lot of fashion.  However, on the occasions I have, I rarely see it in fabrics with my P45+, though definitely saw it more with the P25+.  However for industrial and architecture, pattern moire is easily concealable while color moire usually shows up in areas of repetitive high frequency detail, like roofing and mini-blinds, and usually it's the ugly red/blue version.  And here is it not so easy to simply "paint it out" in post lest you kill all that detail; and blurred sections of mini-blinds or roofing do not make for good final results... By contrast, pattern moire shows up in localized areas of even regular texture, like walls or siding, and a simple brush usually fixes it with little detrimental effect to the final image.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 11:43:00 am by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2009, 11:41:49 am »

Quote from: shelby_lewis
To play devil's advocate though... I've noticed that the shear resolution and bit-depth of the backs (looking at other people's files... I don't own a back) sure seems to make them very sensitive to color temp.

Indeed, you do need to get the color balance precisely set with a DB, or at least with Phase backs; their AWB is atrocious (read, totally sucks) compared to even a consumer P&S cam.  So to clarify, I do shoot a Macbeth at the start of each set or session
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 11:53:01 am by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

TimG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 97
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2009, 12:56:28 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Are people really quibling over skin tones?  You do know you can shoot RAW and roll your own color, right?  I never had problems with Canon 1ds2 skin because I fixed everything in the raw converter or in post.  Its really simple to set up a preset that suits your taste in skin.  Use Color editor in C1 or Light Room.

Suggesting software as the solution misses the point completely.

If a $40k back can't capture accurate skin tones out of the box, it ain't worth the box.  

Besides, photographers have already taken the likes of Adobe to task to provide them with capable software, and the company delivered.

Now it's time to take the likes of Phase and Leaf to task.  Their costs are high, their overall volume is low, and we're in a tough economic state.  

Can they really afford to lose yet more market share to Canon & Nikon?
Logged

HarperPhotos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1309
    • http://www.harperphoto.com
Leaf Aptus 75 versus Nikon D3x
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2009, 04:31:38 pm »

Gidday,

Below is a link to down load the Raw Leaf and Nikon images.

  https://rcpt.yousendit.com/670715809/e1aa97...48fcddfb789367a

Look forward to every ones opinions.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 04:35:11 pm by HarperPhotos »
Logged
Simon Harper
Harper Photographics Ltd
http://www.harperphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/harper.photographics

Auckland, New Zealand
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Up