Is video for MF reasonable?

[fredjeang]

I don't know if the topic will speak to most of you but I try anyway.

We've been seeing recently the irruption of video in the photographer's assignments. This was predicted for some times now and it's there.
I'm very happy to see Cooter, Barrett etc...enjoying the Red and many more doing well with the 5D.

The recent 80MP backs from MF manufacturers was also predictable and logical. They will surely attract LF users and the pixel increment seems to be the golden rule.

But, what about the introduction at one point of video capabilities in MF ?

We know the issues with the CCD, Michael Reichmann also pointed the too narrow DOF that will be a real problem, but it seems that some Lu-La users have also expressed their desires of such DOF in video.

Is video in MF makes sense for you? Is it possible, sailable?

It would be also nice to have the comments of thoughts from the people who are inside the MF companies.

[Christopher Sanderson]

But is it not a reasonable notion to use only a part of the sensor at 1920 x 1080 or even double that or downsample with an un-compressed SDI output of 50 mB/sec or so?
IOW use a reduced version of the Live View to HD on an external recorder at 24 fps?

[Neil Folberg]

But is it not a reasonable notion to use only a part of the sensor at 1920 x 1080 or even double that or downsample with an un-compressed SDI output of 50 mB/sec or so?
IOW use a reduced version of the Live View to HD on an external recorder at 24 fps?

I don't know if it's reasonable, but I would use it if it were there...

[fredjeang]

It's all a pissing contest of who can have the biggest this or most of that, be it pixels, dynamic range, frames per second or whatever, just fill in the blank. To me, creativity can always be assisted by improved technology, but creativity will always trump technology. The small independent creator of any visual art can and always will think far beyond what any camera or tech company can development. That is the true brilliance, not the tech incremental improvement roadmap.

I certainly agree with your lines! I expressed the same idea in another thread answer.

Yes, when I was thinking of MF video, I had in mind what Chris posted, a part of the sensor used. What's the advantage? That people who had already an MF system could do video with the same base.
(ok, they'll have to get the robocop circus that we have with the 5D but...the first time you'd have a proper Marshall screen on a MF camera)

[Nick-T]

Part of the sensor yes but full width would be nice to preserve (some of) the framing. I'd love to be able to flick a switch on my MF to switch to HD recording.

Nick-T

[bcooter]

Part of the sensor yes but full width would be nice to preserve (some of) the framing. I'd love to be able to flick a switch on my MF to switch to HD recording.

Nick-T

I believe in the not to distant future, we'll see some kind of square sensor camera that shoots either usable stills fro video or a combination of stills and ultra high def video.

Why square?  Because the media we run in will dictate being able to flip a switch and have any format we desire.

Why more than 4k high def motion?  So we can crop and effect an image. 

We all know print is going the way of electronic delivery and with it comes a need for different motion formats.  2:3 and 4:3 vertical, same with horizontal, maybe some square and for cinema all flavors in between from academy to 1:85.

A square sensor would allow this without changing orientation and maybe on different settings would allow us to purpose an image, still and/or motion in different formats.  Print designers are not going to go away, neither are their request or sensibilities for non standard formats.

After all, what designer or AD wants to always be stuck with widescreen?

Obviously the computer screen is going the way of wide screen 16x9, but that doesn't mean all the devices like Ipad's phones, even interconnected wall screens have to display in a 16x9 format.

Add to this delivery methods such as video embedded apps, and pdf downloads and the day will come where the media and design dictates the format.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang]

I don't know if literally square but what is sure is that we'll need a more square standart.
16:9 is not a path suitable for the next "generational needs" and devices related.

The ideal would be to have the possibility to get high def still on each motion frame, I can't imagine how this will be possible with storage and computer power, but engineers are paid to find solutions and no doubt they will at one point or another. After all, this is not rocket science.

The medias will dictate the formats, that is indeed true. Cameras will have to be able to film in whatever format desired, I agree with BC. I can't help thinking that in the last years, we've been immersed into a real mess and what's true today will not be tomorrow. Got the sensation that nobody is really knowing where the boat goes, it's like one day wind comes from south, the next day switches to north...but there are signs that start to draw a path.

The thing is that I'm not sure if only big companies like Sony, Canon etc...will be able to stand such technology. Maybe the MF companies are too small to be able to follow the video route that is coming.

[Rod.Klukas]

Forgive my video naivity, but isn't part of the issue vis-a-vis video on a MF back heat?

A large sensor generates a lot of heat which generates noise, etc,..

Thanks for listening.

[vduault]

Video for MF is more and more becoming obvious because the new hi-res sensors are surpassing the accuracy of MF AF systems, and it will become more and more obvious to manually focus your lens trough a huge digital back touch screen than trying to focus your picture through a pinhole viewfinder.

I work with a technical camera and the idea of seeing my groundglass replaced by a 10 fps video on the back  screen really excites me... focusing with wide angles lenses will not be painful anymore.

[feppe]

We know the issues with the CCD, Michael Reichmann also pointed the too narrow DOF that will be a real problem, but it seems that some Lu-La users have also expressed their desires of such DOF in video.

Even if it was technically possible, DOF is something that I can't see being overcome. 5D2 already has too shallow a DOF, and has to be stopped down quite a bit to recreate cinematic DOF, let alone TV or video. It's much worse with MF - we'd have to create makeup which protects the actors from heat generated by sun-strength lighting I could see MF video being marginally useful for (very) special effects shots, nothing more.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Video today is essentially "Full HD" that is 1920x1080. That essentially means that full frame DSLR video is scaled down about three times linearly, causing a lot of problems with aliasing. Increasing the image size would compound the problems but have little benefits. Would video go 4K, 6K or 8K it may be a different thing, but at this stage MF video doesn't really seem to be a god option.

Best regards
Erik

I don't know if the topic will speak to most of you but I try anyway.

We've been seeing recently the irruption of video in the photographer's assignments. This was predicted for some times now and it's there.
I'm very happy to see Cooter, Barrett etc...enjoying the Red and many more doing well with the 5D.

The recent 80MP backs from MF manufacturers was also predictable and logical. They will surely attract LF users and the pixel increment seems to be the golden rule.

But, what about the introduction at one point of video capabilities in MF ?

We know the issues with the CCD, Michael Reichmann also pointed the too narrow DOF that will be a real problem, but it seems that some Lu-La users have also expressed their desires of such DOF in video.

Is video in MF makes sense for you? Is it possible, sailable?

It would be also nice to have the comments of thoughts from the people who are inside the MF companies.

[BJNY]

I don't know if the topic will speak to most of you but I try anyway.

We've been seeing recently the eruption of video in the photographer's assignments. This was predicted for some times now and it's there.
I'm very happy to see Cooter, Barrett etc...enjoying the Red and many more doing well with the 5D.

The recent 80MP backs from MF manufacturers was also predictable and logical. They will surely attract LF users and the pixel increment seems to be the golden rule.

But, what about the introduction at one point of video capabilities in MF ?

We know the issues with the CCD, Michael Reichmann also pointed the too narrow DOF that will be a real problem, but it seems that some Lu-La users have also expressed their desires of such DOF in video.

Is video in MF makes sense for you? Is it possible, sailable?

It would be also nice to have the comments of thoughts from the people who are inside the MF companies.

More likely MF video will come from RED, since 9K 645 Monstro was on their roadmap a couple years ago.

I believe in the not to distant future, we'll see some kind of square sensor camera that shoots either usable stills fro video or a combination of stills and ultra high def video.

Why square?  Because the media we run in will dictate being able to flip a switch and have any format we desire.

Why more than 4k high def motion?  So we can crop and effect an image.  

We all know print is going the way of electronic delivery and with it comes a need for different motion formats.  2:3 and 4:3 vertical, same with horizontal, maybe some square and for cinema all flavors in between from academy to 1:85.

A square sensor would allow this without changing orientation and maybe on different settings would allow us to purpose an image, still and/or motion in different formats.  Print designers are not going to go away, neither are their request or sensibilities for non standard formats.

After all, what designer or AD wants to always be stuck with widescreen?

Obviously the computer screen is going the way of wide screen 16x9, but that doesn't mean all the devices like Ipad's phones, even interconnected wall screens have to display in a 16x9 format.

Add to this delivery methods such as video embedded apps, and pdf downloads and the day will come where the media and design dictates the format.

IMO

BC

bcooter, are you expecting this from Canon?

[yaya]

Damn I was really hoping for a 108643 iso rig...guess I'll have to skip this one a wait another 2 years...
My lowly 1983' 0.3MP SLAS will have to do for now:-)

[bcooter]

are you expecting

I have no idea what anyone is going to make, but it doesn't take an mba in communications to know that ink on paper probably isn't the savior for the photography world.

Given that, designers, publishers, clients, are all going to be working in different formats.  In my office right now I have 8 lcd screens if you count everything from tower computers, broadcast monitors, Imacs, Ipads, Iphones and none have exactly the same screen dimensions.

So, it just stands to reason that the request for square or vertical video is coming.  

I've done it already with the 5d2 and with the xl1h, but you have to mount them on their side, edit sideways and unless you crop down, your working on a very skinny 16x9 vertical.

There is also something else to consider . . . cost.   It's much more expensive to shoot 16x9 horizontal in a commercial setting than a square or a vertical.  Lights need more throw, the stage or location needs a lot of width and not that many still photographers that transition over to motion are that comfortable telling a story with a super wide format.

Go to a movie studio and look at a "small" inset stage.  You can put a tractor/trailer on it and if your a still guy you ask "that's a small stage?", but if your a film guy and you pan the camera 10 degrees you say "s**t I don't have enough room.

Also most advertisers product/services, don't not show up well on a 16x9 frame on a laptop computer.  Shoot a full length person and put it on the web and even if it's set for excellent streaming and bandwidth, a lot of detail is lost in that environment.

I know everybody's thinking utube or facebook with those knocked down pixelated videos, but we all know larger bandwidth is coming and I think we all know it will be near universal, whether wireless, or plugged into the office.

Also I don't believe traditional media is just going to roll over and play dead because of facebook.  I know, I know everybody has a face book account and everybody talks about it, but they have the lowest advertising click through rate of any network and next time somebody mentions facebook to you ask them if they will pay for it?   

Anyway, sorry to get off track.

At that point, detail, format, the ability to freeze frame will be important.

But what will Canon do, or any of the makers in regards to sensor sizes.  I don't hold out a lot of hope.

After all it took Canon 10 years to finally produce a video camera that shot directly to cards, instead of tape and Sony still puts their line of new video cameras and cross over cameras in a 60i wrapper.

Panasonic is pushing the 4/3 format which is a tiny chip, and probably more than 1/2 of episodic television is shot with some kind of 2/3's inch eng camera form JVD, or Sony.

I think our best hope is the specialty makers, probably RED and hopefully Hasselblad and Phase.  But whoever does a square or user defined format is going to have to offer more than line skipping or tiny 3ccd chips.

It's going to have to be full fledged stills that can move, because we're still in the transitioning stage where clients still ask for print resolution.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, when we are talking video in MF, I understand that manufacturers would provide that capability in their backs of course. Do you imagine filming with your Arca? I do although I don't have any Arca.

[kawasakiguy37]

6x6 back for MF cameras with video would be great. I think you all are forgetting that it wouldnt necessarily have to be the SAME sensor. As in you can have your digital back for photos (80mp), and then one for video too (4-8 megapixel, maybe even up to 12, with great ISO performance). The real advantage is being able to use your current lenses (although I suppose you could probably adapt your MF lenses to a RED or similar).