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Author Topic: which sense has sensor + technology ?  (Read 15010 times)

eronald

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which sense has sensor + technology ?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 07:53:27 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
Inversely, would you pit that same Nikon against the P65+ in the studio, with strobe, at full rez, at ASA 50? No, you would not.

Everything down to the consumer compacts is now competing for place in the studio. The guy who builds my electronics hardware designs routinely takes macro images of boards and components with a Coolpix that I couldn't do with any of the dSLRs I own. Ambient light, huge depth of field. Don't ask me how the camera does it, it's certainly not the photographer.

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Snook

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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 09:08:29 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
Have a look here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683

Shot by myself at ISO 800 and with a 33 MPx sensor, about 1 year ago.

Best regards,
Thierry

Sure looks like a LOT of smoothing going on in those images..
Looks like noise reduction was put on those files for sure.. The leaves are WAY to smooth... But good try..:+]
Snook
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ThierryH

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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 09:38:29 am »

with all due respect Snook, the noise filtering was set at 25 in ACR, not more not less. If you would know the textures of those leaves in reality, you would understand why they are smooth: it's their nature.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS: it was in no way any "try", simply my opinion that what I see here with the P65+ at ISO 800 is simply not good, at least under such good light conditions. And as you know, I am not longer working for any brand.

Quote from: Snook
Sure looks like a LOT of smoothing going on in those images..
Looks like noise reduction was put on those files for sure.. The leaves are WAY to smooth... But good try..:+]
Snook
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:38:53 am by ThierryH »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 10:00:19 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
the noise filtering was set at 25 in ACR, not more not less. If you would know the textures of those leaves in reality, you would understand why they are smooth: it's their nature.
Me I find the waterdrops quite soft as well. I do not suspect any kind of "try" and I don't want to bother you, not at all! But it's somewhat strange that this seems to be the sole example of the HighISO capabilities of the Sinar Backs all over the web. I am courious to see another example and preferable not in sunlight. Then again I find the noise result quite good in your example. But I find the ISO800 of the P65+ not that bad, too... with regard to print size in generic image dimensions at 300dpi. And one would certainly not use ISO800 with a MFDB when the capture is targeted to extensive upscaling and/or Galery prints.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 10:10:29 am by tho_mas »
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Ken Doo

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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 10:47:03 am »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I could be a little more enthusiastic about pixel bining at 30 megapixels so am hoping Phase is working on that.  Eleanor

Yes, please!

 

bcooter

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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2009, 10:51:09 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
Inversely, would you pit that same Nikon against the P65+ in the studio, with strobe, at full rez, at ASA 50? No, you would not.


No I wouldn't, but I do think before I spent $40,000 for this 60,000,000 pixel P65+with sensor Plus, I'd take a hard look at the 56,000,000 pixel Leaf 10 that cost $25,000  plus a 25,000,000 pixel Nikon D3x that sells for $8,000 and still have another $8,000 saved in my pocket.

There is a lot of zeros in that statement, but I guess we've become accustom to a lot of zeros in financial numbers lately.

Actually, I would like to have higher iso from medium format, but I doubt seriously if I would pay an extra anything for 15mpx higher iso, regardless of how these crops are received.


Edit:  In the process of writing the above, I was stopped to go into a conference call on an upcoming project.  We talk soul, depth, story, lighting, locations and of course numbers, but nowhere in this conversation did anybody mention megapixels, 800 iso noise in shadows or can the image be cropped down to 12% of the original frame.  

Photography is not about science, it's art aided by science, not controlled and I do applaud that this phase back is trying to give us more options in regards to higher iso, but there is so much that gets missed that we really do need and really do keep asking for that I wonder if anybody that makes these cameras listens past the first few sentences.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 11:38:08 am by bcooter »
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eleanorbrown

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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2009, 02:51:41 pm »

I'm trading my 45+ in for the 65+ because of the incredible image quality at iso 50 and 100 at FULL RESOLUTION.  The improvement with Sensor + at iso 200 and 400 at FULL RESOLUTION is welcome icing on the cake.  Pixel bining never entered the equation....the last thing I want are files at 15 megapixels using pixel bining at compromised quality.  I have my lightweight compact 5DII for that at 21 megapixels.  I personally think Phase has done a yeoman's job with this new back but I think using 15 megapixel files as something that is going to sell the back is not going to be a huge factor.  I could be very wrong but it certainly was not a factor in my decision.  Eleanor

Quote from: gwhitf
I do not understand comparing a P65+ to a 35mm DSLR, or, for that matter, getting all hung up about shooting the P65+ at ASA800. To me, there is only one reason to spend the money on that P65+, and that is to shoot it at the sweet spot ASA, probably 50 or 100, and at full rez. Anything else, it's like buying a sledgehammer in order to drive an 8-penny nail. Why would you do that?

Let each camera have their own projects. If you need ASA 25million, then of course, whip out a Nikon or Canon. No CCD back is going to compete with Nikon/Canon at high ASA.

Inversely, would you pit that same Nikon against the P65+ in the studio, with strobe, at full rez, at ASA 50? No, you would not.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2009, 03:30:19 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Edit:  In the process of writing the above, I was stopped to go into a conference call on an upcoming project.  We talk soul, depth, story, lighting, locations and of course numbers, but nowhere in this conversation did anybody mention megapixels, 800 iso noise in shadows or can the image be cropped down to 12% of the original frame.  

Photography is not about science, it's art aided by science, not controlled and I do applaud that this phase back is trying to give us more options in regards to higher iso, but there is so much that gets missed that we really do need and really do keep asking for that I wonder if anybody that makes these cameras listens past the first few sentences.

Cutie Cooter,

Of course they don't talk about ASA 800 noise -- they expect that you are technically proficient, and you have your shit together. It's an assumed thing. It's something that should never be talked about, unless you're Sarah Moon or Michael Ackerman. It's a foregone conclusion that, for the rate that they're paying you, that you're not going to deliver inferior files. Part of your job is about science; it's about having your shit together (again). It's about not setting your 5D on AutoWhiteBalance and AutoExposure, or Program, and just blasting away and expecting every file to be perfect; it's about being in command of your tools, and knowing what you're going to get.

In my eye, the only people that this P65 is designed for is rich landscape guys, or still life ad guys, or architectural guys, or even car guys -- anyone who has tons of light; is not shooting three thousand frames per day; or just, for whatever reason, wants to start his retouching on a file that's 200 or 300 megs, (whether it's needed or not). The P65 is for people who could give a damn what it costs -- "if you have to ask, then you can't afford it". I'm not saying I want it or need it, or whether you want it or need it, but if you were a car guy or a still life guy, I'd bet you'd long ago whipped out your checkbook. "Why do we deliver a 300 meg file? Because we CAN"; that's all the reason they need. I'd rather have the p65 put into this marketplace than yet another DSLR; at least somebody's upping the game. Don't tell me you wouldn't want to have a 40x60 beauty print on your wall from that back, (and I'd guarantee you you could see the difference from your Nikon). If you regularly shot studio, with ten packs, you'd love to have that back. But you don't, so that's fine too. But there is room for it in the marketplace.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 03:32:07 pm by gwhitf »
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hubell

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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2009, 03:48:31 pm »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I'm trading my 45+ in for the 65+ because of the incredible image quality at iso 50 and 100 at FULL RESOLUTION.  The improvement with Sensor + at iso 200 and 400 at FULL RESOLUTION is welcome icing on the cake.  Pixel bining never entered the equation....the last thing I want are files at 15 megapixels using pixel bining at compromised quality.  I have my lightweight compact 5DII for that at 21 megapixels.  I personally think Phase has done a yeoman's job with this new back but I think using 15 megapixel files as something that is going to sell the back is not going to be a huge factor.  I could be very wrong but it certainly was not a factor in my decision.  Eleanor

What did you see in the P65 files that you shot that impressed you compared to your P45 files?

eleanorbrown

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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2009, 04:27:54 pm »

I do a lot of high frequency finely detailed work (Eliot Porter was influential to me in this choice of subject matter) and I am able to make large prints on my 44 inch printer that make one feel like they can "walk into the image"  because of the realism and micro detail available.  Initially I said on one of these boards that I would never go beyond my 45+ but, alas, changed my mind. (I'll be putting some Hasselblad HC lenses on the forum for sale soon to help make up the trade- in difference)......... another reason is that on my antarctica trip my ship sailed through a place that was like none other that I'd ever seen (ice packed Lindblad Cove around 11pm).  I was determined to shoot with my Phase back because the light was so otherworldly and I felt that the images would make stunning large prints. (small prints of this place don't convey what I saw).  I was shooting at iso 200 and that was a stretch for me as I like to stay at 100 iso or under on Phase equipment).  The light was low and I really needed more quality at 400 iso as many of the iso 200 files are soft.  I felt that had I had the sensor plus technology at iso 400 at that time I would have been more satisfied with the resulting files.  (However, I never would have considered shooting anything higher than 400 iso even with sensor + as I have a major aversion to noise/grain  and never would have gone to the pixel bining of 15 megapixels on a Phase back when I also had my Canon at hand).

Oh also, one other reason.... a while back on a forum I also said that I wouldn't go to a larger pixel back just to be able to crop and still have a high res. image file to work with.  Since that comment I injured by spine by lifting a heavy computer monitor the wrong way and that resulted in spine surgery (with fantastic results and I want to keep it that way).  My surgeon told me not to go around packing 35 lbs. of equipment on my back anymore so now I'm limiting how much I take on trips, usually limited to three HC lenses, the longest being the 100 lens.  With the 65+ I can now crop when necessary to simulate a longer focal length lens if need be.  Eleanor


Quote from: hcubell
What did you see in the P65 files that you shot that impressed you compared to your P45 files?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 04:38:58 pm by eleanorbrown »
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hubell

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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 05:25:44 pm »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I do a lot of high frequency finely detailed work (Eliot Porter was influential to me in this choice of subject matter) and I am able to make large prints on my 44 inch printer that make one feel like they can "walk into the image"  because of the realism and micro detail available.  Initially I said on one of these boards that I would never go beyond my 45+ but, alas, changed my mind. (I'll be putting some Hasselblad HC lenses on the forum for sale soon to help make up the trade- in difference).........   Eleanor

I understand the motivation. However, I remain sceptical that, using the very best sharpening and image enlargement techniques, I will be able to see in even very large prints a "meaningful" difference between 39mp and 60mp files.
BTW, for what the upgrade will cost you, you could probably afford in this economic environment to hire someone to carry your equipment for you for the next two years. [G]

pss

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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 05:28:28 pm »

the whole pixel binning sensor + tech talk got me REALLY excited when the P65 was announced....now, a year later....it comes down to that?
sorry....the files can't compare to any 20+mpix DSLR at the same iso....and that isn't even a fair comparison....i shoot at 1.4 with the 5DII all the time....which gives me an even more shallow depth of field (not scientific, just a gut feeling and remembering my own mamiyas,...) then 2.8....so even without the whole mirror slap, weight,....shake factor of MF....i can shoot at least 2 stops faster with DSLR.....so the P65+ at 1600 would compare to a 5DII at 400? not even in DR.....and i really won't go into the AF performance of any MF system (which can't even compare to the 5DII).....
when i heard about the P65+ i thought it would be a 30mpix @ 800 file as clean as a 60mpix @ 200...or something like that....
these look like iso 400 files from my P20....useable, liked the "grain" but a joke compared to D3, 5DII, DsIII,....

i totally see the point for getting a P65+, i am sure it is amazing at base iso, but it is worrying (not for me, but for DMF) that this seems to be the best they can do in terms of "highish" iso (since the DSLRs have raised the bar so high lately, you can't even call 800 high anymore)....

dead, dead, dead...i know there is still a market for it and i will be giddy to shoot with it when i need one (and rent one) but it is like 8x10 cameras....and i wouldn't not be surprised if they actually sold more of those....

the last announcement to really get me excited was the S2, but it will be the same thing....barely useable 800 at 2.8 with a heavy camera with soso AF is definitely limiting for most commercial shoots involving people...with so many other choices around....
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tho_mas

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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2009, 05:33:45 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
BTW, for what the upgrade will cost you, you could probably afford in this economic environment to hire someone to carry your equipment for you for the next two years. [G]
or easily buy a view camera with some nice lenses and stitch the files of the P45+... in this case there is certainly almost zero difference from P45+ to P65+
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eleanorbrown

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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2009, 06:08:02 pm »

After my equipment trade (Phase and Canon)  and Hasselblad and Canon equipment sales, my final cash output will actually be quite low--much less than a view camera and "some nice lenses". eleanor

Quote from: tho_mas
or easily buy a view camera with some nice lenses and stitch the files of the P45+... in this case there is certainly almost zero difference from P45+ to P65+
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EricV

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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2009, 07:23:19 pm »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I could be a little more enthusiastic about pixel bining at 30 megapixels so am hoping Phase is working on that.  Eleanor
There are probably a few good reasons for the binning to be a factor of four.  First, every set of four pixels in the standard Bayer array contains full color information (GRGB), so complex color interpolation is not required for the binned pixels.  This must help a little to mitigate the resolution loss.  Second, binning improves sensitivity only by reducing electronic noise from the pixel read process (by reading fewer pixels), so the noise/sensitivity improvement is directly tied to the pixel count reduction.
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bcooter

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« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2009, 07:26:46 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
"Why do we deliver a 300 meg file? Because we CAN"


Photographers are a paranoid bunch.  It's like the arms race. Nobody stops and says, hold it, don't we have enough missles to  blow up the world 40 times over?  Nope, they just keep making more missles.

Maybe  somebody really does need 60 million pixels, I don't know who, but it's their money so have fun, or feel secure that today (today meaning 12 months)  you have the "best imaging device possible in the known history of mankind", or however this thing is labeled.

Maybe somebody really needs a 1.04 crop instead of a 1.14 crop or a 1.24 crop, but can you really see the differnce?  It's not like this is measured in inches from 4x5 to 8x10.

You gotta remember that it wasn't to long ago that 6 mpx was the best imaging device in the history of mankind, then 22 mpx, 33, 39, 50, 54, 60 and I'm almost positive that someday, somebody is going to make a 400 mpx back just about the time Nikon makes a 50mpx coolpix, Canon has a 1ds Mark XXII at 150mpx and the drive space for my 24 core 12 processor mac will be the size of the AT+T world headquarters.

Still I'll bet it sells.

I also will bet that 400 mpx back will have a postage stamp lcd, requires a 30 ft. cable to view a polaroid and the batteries last for under two hours.

But really, let's get back to my earlier post, does a 60mpx Phase at $40,000 really out anything a 54mpx Leaf does at $25,000?
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Carsten W

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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2009, 07:27:24 pm »

Quote from: EricV
There are probably a few good reasons for the binning to be a factor of four.  First, every set of four pixels in the standard Bayer array contains full color information (GRGB), so complex color interpolation is not required for the binned pixels.  This must help a little to mitigate the resolution loss.  Second, binning improves sensitivity only by reducing electronic noise from the pixel read process (by reading fewer pixels), so the noise/sensitivity improvement is directly tied to the pixel count reduction.

Thirdly, binning by 4 means an exact division by two in each dimension. Binning to half the resolution means the division is by the root of 2 in each dimension, meaning that the entire image will be interpolated, rather than "binned", so to speak. It is not clear what the best way is to do that, at least to me.
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rethmeier

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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2009, 07:43:06 pm »

I think also that the Leaf would suit the landscape shooters better.
You don't have to crop the image as much as with the Phase.
Aptus 56x36 size is more landscape friendly and goes wider too!

Just my 2CW,

Cheers,
Willem.
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mcfoto

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« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 08:58:38 pm »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I do a lot of high frequency finely detailed work (Eliot Porter was influential to me in this choice of subject matter) and I am able to make large prints on my 44 inch printer that make one feel like they can "walk into the image"  because of the realism and micro detail available.  Initially I said on one of these boards that I would never go beyond my 45+ but, alas, changed my mind. (I'll be putting some Hasselblad HC lenses on the forum for sale soon to help make up the trade- in difference)......... another reason is that on my antarctica trip my ship sailed through a place that was like none other that I'd ever seen (ice packed Lindblad Cove around 11pm).  I was determined to shoot with my Phase back because the light was so otherworldly and I felt that the images would make stunning large prints. (small prints of this place don't convey what I saw).  I was shooting at iso 200 and that was a stretch for me as I like to stay at 100 iso or under on Phase equipment).  The light was low and I really needed more quality at 400 iso as many of the iso 200 files are soft.  I felt that had I had the sensor plus technology at iso 400 at that time I would have been more satisfied with the resulting files.  (However, I never would have considered shooting anything higher than 400 iso even with sensor + as I have a major aversion to noise/grain  and never would have gone to the pixel bining of 15 megapixels on a Phase back when I also had my Canon at hand).

Oh also, one other reason.... a while back on a forum I also said that I wouldn't go to a larger pixel back just to be able to crop and still have a high res. image file to work with.  Since that comment I injured by spine by lifting a heavy computer monitor the wrong way and that resulted in spine surgery (with fantastic results and I want to keep it that way).  My surgeon told me not to go around packing 35 lbs. of equipment on my back anymore so now I'm limiting how much I take on trips, usually limited to three HC lenses, the longest being the 100 lens.  With the 65+ I can now crop when necessary to simulate a longer focal length lens if need be.  Eleanor
Hi
This might be off topic & since you are trying to save weight on your equipment. Have you thought about going to the Mamiya platform? This would give you access to the 28mm & maybe Phase would have some added incentive for you to switch over? I know my partner prefers the Mamiya over the H series because the lenses are lighter.
Thanks Denis
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rethmeier

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« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2009, 09:07:29 pm »

That's exactly what Michael Reichmann did!
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