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Author Topic: More Details on the Leica S2  (Read 86031 times)

ziocan

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More Details on the Leica S2
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2009, 12:17:11 pm »

For what I remember from the S2 sample I handled, it shoots 1,5 frames per second, not the other way around.
this is fastest than any other MF camera. I think the specs actually says 1,7 frames per second.
The Af was really good for a MF.
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BJNY

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« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2009, 01:24:40 pm »

Quote from: ynp
What kind of ports does  the S2 have, USB-2?? Firewire???

USB2 with lock
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Guillermo

BJNY

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« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2009, 01:27:11 pm »

Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
The S2 shoots @ 1.5 f/s which is TOO slow!!! The P65+ shoots @ 1.0 f/s as does Leaf backs. Some of the Leaf backs shoot faster than 1 f/s.
Denis

S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame
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Guillermo

ynp

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« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2009, 01:35:42 pm »

Thank you!
Yevgeny
Quote from: BJNY
USB2 with lock
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2009, 01:39:22 pm »

Quote from: BJNY
S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame


Exactly Billy the way it is said gets folks mixed up.
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2009, 01:41:28 pm »

Quote from: BJNY
USB2 with lock


Thanks Billy I thought it was but was more interested in the plug in to body at the demo.
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BJNY

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« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2009, 01:52:07 pm »

From David's blog.

The tethered setup uses high-speed USB with a unique cable. It is not the mini USB, but rather a round metal connector with a safety lock.
My Leica fellow plugged the cable in and dangled the camera and lens over the floor held up by the USB connector!
I nearly had a heart attack and he had a good laugh.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/SNm-...-h/L1020368.JPG

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:11:47 pm by BJNY »
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Guillermo

BJNY

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« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2009, 02:06:22 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Pretty cool but there is still debate on what tethered software they will use

I believe Aperture tethers with cameras following Picture Transfer Protocol.

I'd be very happy if the S2 would tether into Lightroom.
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Guillermo

Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2009, 02:34:20 pm »

It can do LR with a hot folder I was told.
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KevinA

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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2009, 09:27:53 am »

Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.


Edmund

Do you mean the S2?
I think it would be ideal off tripod, I used to use the Pentax 67 handheld I was told that wasn't practical either.

Kevin.
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eronald

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« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2009, 09:33:11 am »

Quote from: KevinA
Do you mean the S2?
I think it would be ideal off tripod, I used to use the Pentax 67 handheld I was told that wasn't practical either.

Kevin.

Well, time will tell. The sellers are always positive, the armchair critics negative. Let's see what the buyers say.

Edmund
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BJL

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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2009, 11:41:13 am »

Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.
Maybe the truth is that to make full use of the resolution offered by 30MP+ sensors, or even 22MP+ sensors, you have to choose between very shallow DOF, abundant light (natural, flash etc.), or some kind of stabilization (tripod, monopod, in-lens, or in-body). The three 35mm format DSLR systems all offer the in-lens or in-body stabilization approaches, but no larger format system does so far. I wonder if Leica will go in that direction? I somewhat doubt it, but if so, I would bet on sensor-based rather than lens-based, to protect the "optical purity" of the Leica lens designs, and to offer it for all lenses without having to redesign them all.
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eronald

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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2009, 12:04:42 pm »

Quote from: BJL
Maybe the truth is that to make full use of the resolution offered by 30MP+ sensors, or even 22MP+ sensors, you have to choose between very shallow DOF, abundant light (natural, flash etc.), or some kind of stabilization (tripod, monopod, in-lens, or in-body). The three 35mm format DSLR systems all offer the in-lens or in-body stabilization approaches, but no larger format system does so far. I wonder if Leica will go in that direction? I somewhat doubt it, but if so, I would bet on sensor-based rather than lens-based, to protect the "optical purity" of the Leica lens designs, and to offer it for all lenses without having to redesign them all.

I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen. This is ridiculous ; every time the resolution goes up one needs a higher shutter speed to freeze motion.

At this rate, only flash and tripod shooters will be able to get optimal results from hi-rez cameras. Or maybe camera stabilisation will be obligatory.

In any case, any MF camera that does not provide at least good 800 ISO is in my opinion not suitable for use at those stratospheric MP. 1600 ISO is the new 400 Fujichrome, baby better pack some, 6400 is Fujichrome 1600, so pushed but sometimes so necessary.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:06:22 pm by eronald »
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JDBFreeheel

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More Details on the Leica S2
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2009, 12:17:42 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.

I have a P45+ Mamiya combo; it is basically unusable even for outdoor portraits in the Paris winter light.

Edmund

Edmund, while I respect your opinion, I think it cuts too wide of a swath.

I'd just point out that:

1) All users' experience will vary.  Some photographers feel fine with their MF kits hand held in certain situations and some do not.  Perhaps it's a skill thing, or a technique thing, or just what you're looking to get out of the shot.  But, just because you choose to not use a MF kit hand held does not make others crazy to do so.

2) It also depends on your work.  For a long exposure landscape, no I wouldn't consider using my kit or the S2 hand held.  That's silly.  But, that's also not their market.  For situational location-based shots, with shutter speeds varying, I think it would probably be fine.  Photographers have long been shooting hand held on location, long before the current technology and with certainly 'grainier' films in the past.  My hunch is that this system (if it is ever adopted by certain pros) will find itself splitting time between tripods and hand held situations.

3) Just because you are a fan of a particular kit (Nikon D3x in your case) doesn't make it the perfect tool for everyone else.  It appears that it's a fantastic tool for your use; but there's no need to dog other systems simply because it doesn't seem to fit your style. Frankly I don't need everything that the D3x has, and prefer the workflow and methodical style of my MF kits.I'm used to it, and don't want to move to a different system.  Does that make my systems better, maybe not for others, but for me, yes.  There are things that the D3x does better than my kits and things that I feel my kits do better than the D3x.  

4) Lastly, I think we need to wait until we have production models in the hands of pros to determine it's value to a wide spectrum of users.  Who knows.  It may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or a total bust.  But until we get past the Leica reps' opinions and promises and all of our speculation, we honestly have no idea what the true output and support will be like.  

-Josh
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:18:58 pm by JDBFreeheel »
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ziocan

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More Details on the Leica S2
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2009, 12:42:02 pm »

Quote from: JDBFreeheel
Edmund, while I respect your opinion, I think it cuts too wide of a swath.

I'd just point out that:

1) All users' experience will vary.  Some photographers feel fine with their MF kits hand held in certain situations and some do not.  Perhaps it's a skill thing, or a technique thing, or just what you're looking to get out of the shot.  But, just because you choose to not use a MF kit hand held does not make others crazy to do so.



-Josh
I agree.
I remember shooting models with the Mamiya RZ hand held with 100/200 iso film on the street of Paris or in Soho which light wise is the same. not the more comfortable thing to do but doable.
Shooting with an AFD or an Hasselblad on a DB at 100/200 is far less challenging and definitively very doable. By the way, they still sells monopods.
Though today, unless there are some special requirements, I would likely do those kind of shoots with a DSLR, preferably Sony with image stabilization for every lens.
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BJL

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« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2009, 10:14:43 am »

Quote from: eronald
I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen.
What shutter speed were you using that required ISO 1600?
What shutter speed do you think would have been needed to avoid any "slight shake or movement blur on screen"?
By "on-screen" do you mean at 100%, so about 100PPI?
If so, how doe the blur look when the image is displayed at a size more relevant to printing, like 180PPI or higher?

But the trend you see is clear: high res. has always needed a tripod or other stabilization or very bright light, and though the greatly improved sensitivity of electronic sensors over film has moves the barrier up, the increasing res. of high end digital is keeping this true.

Also, it is pleasing to read a working photographer talk about the realities of working stopped down for adequate DOF, for balance to the perennial performance comparisons which effectively assume the use of fast lenses wide open.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2009, 11:00:12 am »

Quote from: BJNY
S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame

Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

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BJNY

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« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2009, 11:30:59 am »

Doug,

I was merely illustrating frames per second vs. seconds per frame,

nothing else.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 11:35:51 am by BJNY »
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Guillermo

mtomalty

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« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2009, 12:29:56 pm »

Quote from: eronald
I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen. This is ridiculous ; every time the resolution goes up one needs a higher shutter speed to freeze motion.

It seems, Edmund, that perhaps there's more unstabilized than just your 200mm lens.

As a scientist, maybe you could provide a few more details that could help isolate the movement blur you are seeing.
ISO 1600 is a moot point if you are shooting handheld and need f22 to get the depth of field you require if that aperture gives you a shutter speed of 1/60.

Which 200mm lens did you use?  Currently Nikon only offers 1-the 200 f2.0 which is stabilized.

Among other things, I routinely shoot 15-17 year old elite minor league hockey games (indoor) with a 1Ds3 and a non-stabilized Canon 200 1.8.
I usually require iso 1600-3200 to squeeze out 1/250 @ f 2.0 in most poorly lit municipal arenas and even at that,assuming I nail the focus, I can easily
define fiber details in skate laces and stitching in fabric when viewed at 100% so, for my money, your issues are rooted in something different than
sensor resolution numbers.

Mark
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James R Russell

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« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2009, 12:42:40 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

__________________


The most asked question I hear from photographers is will Nikon or Canon make a medium format sized camera.  I think all of us know they can and obviously both have made optics for about everything, so making a lens line large enough to cover a 645 frame wouldn't be a leap.  Actually I don't think anyone believes Canon or Nikon can't build any camera they want, if the market is large enough for profit.

What is interesting is nobody asks about a Canon or Nikon because they dislike the image quality from their digital backs, they just want the same usability and ease in medium format they have with their dslrs and the real truth is the dslrs have gotten much better and much easier to use, while medium format still struggles with in camera processing, readable lcd's and in a lot of cases software development.

The Leica seems interesting, but it also seems one step back even before introduction.  Yes Leica glass can be nice, (also it can be problematic when the quality control falls down which happened a lot with the M8), but I seriously wonder if the world is really waiting for a low iso ccd camera with semi slow lenses for two or three times the cost of a d3x or Canon 1ds3?

The Leica seems more of an enthusiasts camera than a working photographers tool, but I guess they will sell I just wonder how many.

If Leica does aim the S2 at the professional it needs to get past the usual medium format business model of slow deadlines and wait and see product.  It must come out on the shelves working, with full lenses, software and in rentals or it will be like the HY6.  A nice camera that becomes buried in a niche market.

Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

Or even better if Leica had annouced an M series with a cmos sensor or 17 to 20 mpx, and autofocus lenses, I'd write the check today.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 01:00:27 pm by James R Russell »
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