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Author Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent  (Read 180017 times)

lisa_r

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2009, 08:26:11 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Most are not and many are upgrading from the P45 plus . But yes they are shipping

I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.
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Steve Hendrix

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2009, 08:35:55 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.

I find that hard to believe, though I don't doubt what you are saying Lisa.  

Digital Transitions (NY branch) is not my dealer, but I know that dealers I have responsibility for have been shipped P65+ units for their customers, though they still have some on backorder.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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PeterA

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« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2009, 09:35:44 pm »

Quote from: michael
I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael

Michael - your LL business strategy/model is a perfect model for camera companies in MF land to look at and learn from. The great majority of users are in it for the FUN. The so called 'pro market' is a very tiny percentage of the real market. One of Phase One's competitive advantages has been the fact that many of its dealer's understanding that the well heeled buyer is not a bad investment proposition. Compared to the typical working pro - the well heeled buyer is lower cost to service and is more likely to pay up - because it is about fun. Your own site and sales benefits from tapping into peopel's predisposiiton to having FUN. you dont shove an elitist attitude down people's throats.

If one looks at the economics of the game - leaving aside current economic turmoil - the people who actually 'buy' MF capability are not working pros but the working pro client base and their expectaitons.  It seems that the client is spending less and asking for more - and the working pro has tried to shove this economic structural dynamic back to the manufacturers. the manufacturers in focussing too much on tiny ( not even small) businesses have dug a hole for themselves...too funny if it wasnt so sad. How many times have some of thre best shooters on here remarkered tha their clients cant see a difference between a MF back and a DSLR? What else is there to knwo for that end of the market?

btw - looking through most posted stuff in this forum - it seems that  Pro shooting for mazines etc has become a side line to illustrators. A working photographer has to understand where all this is leading..a MF manufacturer must understand that their ability to help a working pro really differentiate themselves through using their hardware and software - is pretty much  ..gone.

Meanwhile your enthusiast sees a digi back much like they see film. Their preferences are for ease of use and size of chip. Give me a 6x6 chip or move towards that and I will pay ( again) - give me another 10 megapixels - well thats a harder sell that would largely be about bragging rights. The well heeled dude is keeping powder dry for a serious paradigm shift and bragging rights associated with that - now what colour might that be? -

The manufacturer's failure to understand the changing landscape and to continue to compete on ever narrower grounds in an ever declining end user market is a self induced death sentence.
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rethmeier

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« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2009, 11:26:41 pm »

Peter A,
I couldn't have said it any better!
Cheers,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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rainer_v

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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2009, 02:45:54 am »

Quote from: michael
I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael
yes you are right. although its not my intent to blame people for having money and having hobbies.
more i tried  be little bit ironic .....
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rainer viertlböck
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michael

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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2009, 04:40:33 am »

Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

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mcfoto

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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2009, 06:48:41 am »

Quote from: michael
Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Hi Micheal
When you say two companies in MFD, do you mean Hasselblad & Phase/Mamiya? Personally I am surprised at the speed at which this is happening, then I look at the drop of car sales in the US!
Denis

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thom

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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2009, 07:16:35 am »

Interesting reading about Franke & Heidecke GmbH (in German):

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev...history_state0=

Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

thom

(and sorry for my english...)
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csp

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2009, 08:06:27 am »

Quote from: thom
Interesting reading about Franke & Heidecke GmbH (in German):

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev...history_state0=

Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

thom

(and sorry for my english...)


... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !  so what makes you think this will change ?  the whole hy6 is in my view a management disaster caused by panic and missed market understanding . they should have studied why rollei failed before they reanimated this camera.  even in film days and even in germany rollei was an outsider with an extreme small user base. this did not come without a reason.  it also does not make senses to me that leaf and sinar / jenoptik  would allow this negative pr and the lost of costumer confidence if they have plans to continue the production.   backs are only a tiny fraction of the jenoptik product portfolio and i would not be surprised to read an announcement in the  weeks ahead  that they will stop their commitment in this field.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2009, 08:10:42 am »

Quote from: csp
... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !

Sigh... I guess you didn't read the press release.
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ThierryH

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« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2009, 08:15:42 am »

I would stop to speculate and wait until things are clear, if ever. It amazes me how some can be such good predictors and how easy in their eyes such a project would be to lead it to success with the right decisions.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: csp
... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !
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csp

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2009, 08:26:27 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Sigh... I guess you didn't read the press release.


maybe you should polish your german ;-)
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2009, 08:59:30 am »

Quote from: EPd
Heinrich (and all): the situation at F&H.... the camera.

Thanks EPd. as along time Rollei user, who is quite happy with the performance of my kit, it would be a loss have them go away.

I did read the article on photo scala and they say, the units sold are way below the expectations.  

I like the concept of the HY6, did some test drives and thought of buying it in the long run. But at the moment I just feel not very certain about it anymore with the news regarding F&H and the lay offs at Sinar....?!
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2009, 09:17:52 am »

Quote from: csp
maybe you should polish your german ;-)

"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2009, 09:57:37 am »

Quote from: foto-z
"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2009, 10:11:37 am »

foto-z

So what you say is that the Hy6 did sell? Interesting. Can you elaborate please.

Quote from: foto-z
"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?
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Carsten W

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« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2009, 10:25:18 am »

Graham, I suppose this was the sentence referred to:

"Der Auftragsbestand war gut, es gab allerdings Fertigungsengpässe und weniger Nachfrage von Seiten Jenoptiks (bzw. deren Vertragspartnern Sinar und Leaf) als erwartet."

It is not clear exactly what it means, but it appears that it might say that Leaf and Sinar ordered fewer Hy6s than expected. But the sentence could also be referring to lenses. There is no clear indication either way. I suppose time will show more clearly what went wrong.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2009, 10:37:49 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
foto-z

So what you say is that the Hy6 did sell? Interesting. Can you elaborate please.

I want to distinguish between fact and rumour, that's all. We have EPd saying that F&H put on more staff recently to handle Hy6 production, and he usually gets it right with respect to F&H: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=264427

So is there an official statement to the contrary?
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2009, 10:53:28 am »

What FOTO-Z implies is that there is no relation between the sales performance of the Hy6 system and its mother company (or the company that manufactures and owns the system design) ultimate bankruptcy.

At this moment we don't know if the system sold well or underperformed since there are no available sales numbers.

In absence of this data we can only scan the "field" where this system would be selling/or not selling. I think that it would be showing here in what it probably is the most pro of all MF forums, and in the rental establishments that cater to the pros that demand the best and latest.

I went looking yesterday on line and found only one place where they rent the system (out of about 6 or 7 in the USA). The predominant backs are PhaseOne and platforms Hasselblad H2 and Mamiya 645....

I don't think that an official press release will specifically would say that "yes, we are defaulting because our star system outperformed", on the other side, if sales where grate they should be saying it so that the product would have a better chance to ever come back to life, no?

   
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hubell

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« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2009, 11:27:58 am »

Quote from: foto-z
I want to distinguish between fact and rumour, that's all. We have EPd saying that F&H put on more staff recently to handle Hy6 production, and he usually gets it right with respect to F&H: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=264427

So is there an official statement to the contrary?

The actual sales numbers in the past are really irrelevant at this point. The F&H announcement will, as a practical matter, likely destroy the prospects of future sales, even if Sinar/Leaf were to take over the manufacturing operations of F&H for the Hy6. Under the best of circumstances(like a vibrant economy), consumer confidence is a fragile thing. With a camera/back/lens system costing upwards of $50k and in the midst of a severe recession, I think the Hy6 would be a very tough sale to make going forward.
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