Point and Shoot/manual Camera Info

[dwdallam]

A friend is looking for her first camera. It would need to be sub 1, 000 and offer full manual so she can learn exposure and film speed, etc. Of course, digital.

I'm not too up on this level camera. I was thinking about the New Sony DSC-R1. This would give her a nice lens rangeand a relatively nice lens without having to worry about changing lenses buying more.

If there anything better out right now that does what the Sony does?

DPREVIEW fo the Sony:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Sony/sony_dscr1.asp

[Lisa Nikodym]

Instead, I'd be tempted to think about an entry-level DSLR (a Nikon D50 or a Canon digital Rebel) with a basic zoom lens (the Nikon 18-70mm DX lens, for example, is a great lens for something so inexpensive).  About the same price, but many more possibilities for upgrading later (with better or different-range lenses) if your friend gets more serious about photography, and likely more "real camera" features than the Sony (though I'm not familiar with the Sony, so I'm not sure about that).  Not as many pixels, perhaps, but I've found that, about 6 mp & up, the quality of the pixels (i.e. of the camera/lens quality and features) is more important than the number of pixels.

Lisa

[dbell]

I find the usability of the manual controls to be a big deal for this kind of purpose. I don't know how good the Sony's are. The D70's are probably about as good as any that are available on a DSLR. I haven't personally used a Rebel, but I would expect them to be pretty similar as far as ergonomics are concerned. I don't find the manual controls on any DSLR that I've used to be particularly great. I don't find wheels and dials particularly intuitive or easy to use.  Fully manual modes can be an irritating exercise.

I find the controls on just about any manual 35mm film camera (FM2, A1, Leica M/R, K1000, SRT, whatever) to be vastly preferable. The conundrum is that aside from a few rare  cameras that have serious compromises of their own (Leica Digilux2/Panasonic LC1) or that cost a fortune (Epson RD-1) there just aren't any readily-available digitals that were designed with manual use in mind.

I'd agree that your best bet is probably someone's (Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta) entry-level DSLR with a decent lens. For use by a moderately serious student (who expects to invest a lot of time in developing their eye), I might even skip the cheap mid-range zoom and just get a fast prime normal lens.

[Tim Gray]

I have a Sony R1 as my carry around and use a 1DMKII for "heavy" duty shooting.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the R1 to someone starting out on a budget.  The kicker is the $1,000 limit.  If that's non negotiable, then go with the Sony you can't get that kind of range 24-120 (let alone the optic quality) in any sub $1000 dslr/lens combination.   I'd probably choose the Sony over a Rebel and 18-55 combo - but that's just me - it's an option to consider.  If they can squeeze a few more $ out of the budget then there are other options.  

I particularly like the Sony since it let's me shoot in a similar style at the 1D in the sense that ISO 400 (my default on the 1D) is completely useable on the Sony - whick makes it unique amoung todays fixed lens cameras.  Useability in bright light (while improved significantly over what was available a few year ago) still sucks.  If they're willing to trade more zoom reach for higher noise, there are also other options...

[dwdallam]

OK I'm listening. A DSLR is probably not the best choice for her at this time. First, the crappy kit lens isn't very good, a Rebel XT is about 800.00 w/o a good lens and she'd eventually need to get into sensor cleaning.

However, the XT would allow more growth, and if I'm not mistaken, it has a C size sensor as does the Sony now.

[Lisa Nikodym]

First, the crappy kit lens isn't very good, a Rebel XT is about 800.00 w/o a good lens and she'd eventually need to get into sensor cleaning.

The Rebel kit lens may be crappy, but the 18-70mm DX lens that came with my Nikon D70 is a darn fine lens for the price; it's cheaper than one would expect for the quality only because, being a DX reduced-frame lens, it's much easier to make well than a full-frame lens.  Not Canon L class, but the next best thing.  Certainly noone could call it crappy.  It's currently my main lens.  Except for the lack of IS, It's a great deal better than my Canon 28-135mm IS lens that was my main lens back before I went fully digital.

Also, the 18-70 mm range covers the majority of shooting conditions, so there would be no need to get into sensor cleaning, since your friend could just use the single lens and never remove it from the camera.  The option of going the multiple-lens route will be there in the future if she should ever decide she wants to go that way, however, unlike for a fixed-lens camera.

I checked on B&H, and the Nikon D50 is only $570.  A Nikon D70s is $830 (I'm not familiar with the differences between them).  The 18-70 mm DX lens was about $300 back when I got it.

Lisa

[dwdallam]

The Rebel kit lens may be crappy, but the 18-70mm DX lens that came with my Nikon D70 is a darn fine lens for the price; it's cheaper than one would expect for the quality only because, being a DX reduced-frame lens, it's much easier to make well than a full-frame lens.  Not Canon L class, but the next best thing.  Certainly noone could call it crappy.  It's currently my main lens.  Except for the lack of IS, It's a great deal better than my Canon 28-135mm IS lens that was my main lens back before I went fully digital.

Also, the 18-70 mm range covers the majority of shooting conditions, so there would be no need to get into sensor cleaning, since your friend could just use the single lens and never remove it from the camera.  The option of going the multiple-lens route will be there in the future if she should ever decide she wants to go that way, however, unlike for a fixed-lens camera.

I checked on B&H, and the Nikon D50 is only $570.  A Nikon D70s is $830 (I'm not familiar with the differences between them).  The 18-70 mm DX lens was about $300 back when I got it.

Lisa
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Do the Nikons in that range have C class sensors? I checked out the D50 today in Costco, and it feels really cheap. This is where the Sony comes out way ahead, and so too for the Rebel XT--but that is comparing apples to oranges. However, the Sony feels in weight and quality more like my 20D with my 24-70 L than does even the Rebel XT.

I'm not stuck on any camera, even though I lean towards the Sony, so I'm up for more discussion for sure. The Nikon lens seems like a good deal. Given that it is nearly as good as a Canon L, I'd be willing to bet that the L lenses will come down drastically to keep people from moving to Nikon and the Nikon glass that is "nearly" as good as the L lens for 1/3 the price. So that too is a very positive point about Nikon.

[Lisa Nikodym]

Do the Nikons in that range have C class sensors? I checked out the D50 today in Costco, and it feels really cheap. This is where the Sony comes out way ahead, and so too for the Rebel XT--but that is comparing apples to oranges. However, the Sony feels in weight and quality more like my 20D with my 24-70 L than does even the Rebel XT.

I'm not familiar with the term "C class".  I haven't handled a D50, but I wouldn't be surprised if it felt cheap - it IS cheap.  The D70s, for the extra couple of hundred $$$, would probably feel better quality.  I believe I remember someone here in the forums awhile back comparing the build feel of the Rebel and the D70 or D70s, and he thought the D70 felt much better built.  It's more $$$ than than D50, though, and might be getting above budget after adding a lens.

I'm not stuck on any camera, even though I lean towards the Sony, so I'm up for more discussion for sure. The Nikon lens seems like a good deal. Given that it is nearly as good as a Canon L, I'd be willing to bet that the L lenses will come down drastically to keep people from moving to Nikon and the Nikon glass that is "nearly" as good as the L lens for 1/3 the price. So that too is a very positive point about Nikon.

In the interest of full disclosure, I never quite said "nearly as good as a Canon L". I've tried to find direct comparisons between Nikon & Canon lenses in the past, and been unable to, so I don't know how they directly compare.   What I *can* tell you is that, while I haven't actually owned an L lens, I do own the Canon 28-135 IS, which is a particularly well-regarded consumer-grade lens, and I know that my copy of it is considerably inferior to the Nikon 18-70 DX in terms of image sharpness, as are all the other consumer-grade Canon lenses I've owned.

If you want an example of a photo I recently took with my D70 & 18-70mm lens, here's a crop of the full image (converted from RAW, a small amount of local contrast enhancement, standard sharpening w/PK Sharpener, cropped and saved as a jpg), taken from near the edge of the frame (which is always worse than in the center):


Here's a downresed version of the full-resolution image, so you can see how much of the image the crop represents:


Pretty good for an inexpensive lens, huh?  (Especially since this was taken hand-held...)

Lisa

[macgyver]

You say this is the friend's first camera.  Why don't you take the friend to play with each model. How a camera feels to someone (both in fit and finish and menue design and whatnot) is highly important.  I personally wouldn't recomend a D70 to a cat, much less a friend,because I hate its feel and menu layout, but others love it.  It's all subjective.  Although I do like that 18-70 DX lens that yall were talking about.

[Lisa Nikodym]

You say this is the friend's first camera. Why don't you take the friend to play with each model. How a camera feels to someone (both in fit and finish and menue design and whatnot) is highly important.

macgyver has an excellent point.  I second the motion.  Also, if possible, your friend can bring her own CF card (plus whatever the Sony uses, if different) and take a couple of images of the same thing with each camera, take the card home, and compare the image quality.

Lisa