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Author Topic: the most recent Kenrockwell shootout  (Read 15159 times)

button

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the most recent Kenrockwell shootout
« on: February 12, 2009, 06:56:26 pm »

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uaiomex

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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 08:31:55 pm »

Absolutely.
Eduardo

Quote from: button
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3x/sharpness-comparison.htm


Worth a look.  What do you think?
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 11:46:22 pm »

Quote from: button
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3x/sharpness-comparison.htm


Worth a look.  What do you think?
All the pictures are identical! You are just imagining that they look different. But they must be identical! Because, as is well known, "your camera doesn't matter."

 


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dwdallam

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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 02:02:44 am »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how he cropped, but the 5DII was cropped at 108% while the Nikon was 100%. Why not compare crops from 100% on both cameras? If he is increasing the magnification of the 5DII to 108% and then cropping, that's going to produce a crappier crop than one taken from an image at 100%.

As for ergonomics, I have only handled one Nikon which was a pro level, but I can't remember which one. I did like the feel of it much better than my 1DS3. It just felt more solid and easier to handle.  It just felt better to me.
All of the other stuff I could care less about. Any camera you buy today from the 5D1 on up is going to give you super good results for most every application you need, just like Rockwell admits. I'm just less and less interested in quality of digital anymore. We're at a time now where things are more than good enough using mid to top level digital FF cameras.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 02:03:45 am by dwdallam »
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harlemshooter

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 12:26:20 pm »

no comments about the manner in which ken rockwell conducts his tests, but from a cost analysis perspective (the d3x retails 3.3x more than the 5d2) the improved quality makes logical sense.  





Quote from: dwdallam
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how he cropped, but the 5DII was cropped at 108% while the Nikon was 100%. Why not compare crops from 100% on both cameras? If he is increasing the magnification of the 5DII to 108% and then cropping, that's going to produce a crappier crop than one taken from an image at 100%.

As for ergonomics, I have only handled one Nikon which was a pro level, but I can't remember which one. I did like the feel of it much better than my 1DS3. It just felt more solid and easier to handle.  It just felt better to me.
All of the other stuff I could care less about. Any camera you buy today from the 5D1 on up is going to give you super good results for most every application you need, just like Rockwell admits. I'm just less and less interested in quality of digital anymore. We're at a time now where things are more than good enough using mid to top level digital FF cameras.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:37:23 am by harlemshooter »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 01:11:28 pm »

Quote from: EricM
Because, as is well known, "your camera doesn't matter."

And so often, neither does Ken <g>
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lightstand

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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 01:43:41 pm »

Quote from: button
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3x/sharpness-comparison.htm


Worth a look.  What do you think?


Gee thanks... you sent me to a review comparing top of the line slr cameras with this quote at the beginning of the review "The wild part is that if I go through the trouble of shooting CR2..."  In other words if you want to buy a $3000 camera lug it out into the wilderness you sure shouldn't be shooting RAW because jpgs are easier

Thank you so much for posting the link
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 01:45:33 pm by lightstand »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 01:56:28 pm »

You mean that the JPEGs from the various cameras are NOT identical in terms of rendering  ? Boy, you can learn something (stupid) from Ken every day.
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eronald

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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 03:29:03 pm »

I have a D3x. It spits out some pretty good files. There is a very good Raw==>Jpeg converter in the camera. It can do some magic like local shadow-recovery.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 03:30:23 pm by eronald »
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button

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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 05:18:19 pm »

Quote from: lightstand
Thank you so much for posting the link

And thank YOU for your response.  I found the addition of the scanned Velvia 50 samples from the Leica/Pentax cameras the most interesting part of the test- I guess I should have mentioned that initially.

John
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Plekto

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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 05:58:02 pm »

The simple truth:

All of the cameras will look identical when you print them out due to dithering, ink bleeding, resizing and scaling and so on during the print process.  At least at say, under 8*12.  Or under 2-3ft at normal painting type viewing distances.(affordable printing technology at this point lags tremendously behind DSLR pixel counts)

What I would look at is the color rendition and accuracy.  Many of them look quite clean but washed out and/or soft.  The Pentax 645 is actually closer to the real colors, though some of that can be compensated for in the DSLRs via Lightroom or other software that post-processes the raw files.

I don't print exhibit-sized prints.  Nor do I print 3-4ft wide/tall giant posters and painting sized prints, either.  My machine goes up to maybe 9*15 if I futz with it(8.5 full bleed and whatever length I can cram into it).  But let's say you actually have a machine that can handle 10 inch wide rolls.   And the largest aspect ratio for most cameras is 2:3, so figure 14-15 inches long per print. 300lpi(or equivalent to that on a dye sub printer)

10x300=3000
15x300=4500
Add both together and you get: 13.5MP  More Pixels than this are literally thrown away or require either a magnifying glass or a much larger printer.  And that's essentially 1:1 quality.  Most people can't tell decently printed 100lpi versus 300 at more than 2-3 feet.  

Unless you are a pro, forget about MP beyond about 12-16MP.  It's well into the "enough already!" category, much like cars are today(can't remember when I actually needed to go 0-60 in 6 seconds...).

But let's say you did splurge on a printer that can do 16 inch wide rolls. The A900 is 6048 x 4032, or 252lpi to stretch to 16 inches.  That gives us 24" wide to keep the aspect ratio correct.  25MP is a huge resulting print.  Could you use a few more pixels to get the lpi count up?  Sure - about 35MP would be perfect with a magnifying glass.  But 250vs 300? Try it sometime.  You'll be amazed at how close you have to get to tell a difference.(hint - it's in inches)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:59:50 pm by Plekto »
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eronald

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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 06:32:31 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
The simple truth:

All of the cameras will look identical when you print them out due to dithering, ink bleeding, resizing and scaling and so on during the print process.  At least at say, under 8*12.  Or under 2-3ft at normal painting type viewing distances.(affordable printing technology at this point lags tremendously behind DSLR pixel counts)

This other gentleman (not Ken) who has had a careful look at Raw converters seems to differ

To quote:

The in camera JPEGs from my 5DMKII, on the other hand, will likely stay in the realm of web work and very small prints. I'm quite disappointed in Canon's approach to low ISO JPEG processing and quite pleased with how much detail is available in the raw files. Preliminary results from the new Nikon D3x show that in camera JPEGs can do a lot more.




Edmund
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 06:35:53 pm by eronald »
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 08:32:54 pm »

Quote from: button
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3x/sharpness-comparison.htm


Worth a look.  What do you think?


hmmm ... Ken Rockwell?  Should I click?

guess not.  Think I'll pass this time.
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Plekto

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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 09:18:59 pm »

Quote from: eronald
This other gentleman (not Ken) who has had a careful look at Raw converters

Software converters(especially using JPEGs     ) are also a problem.  

The cameras themselves raw output is well beyond the average person's printing capability or need.  Of course, this makes it less of a choice of the body and more about the lenses and software/processing.  Kind of like how it was with film?  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 09:35:21 pm by Plekto »
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Ray

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2009, 11:12:23 pm »

I have to say that my experience when meeting fellow photographers when travelling, is that most of them seem to be satisfied with their camera's jpeg output. Those of us who are obsessed with extracting the greatest highlight and shadow detail from our images, including myself, are in the minority.
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daws

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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2009, 12:29:46 am »

Having only this week had dental surgery, stepped barefooted on broken glass, dislocated my big toe kicking a ball to my terrier Trix and had my stomach pumped after ignoring the "Discard After" date on a package of Muenster found in the back of my refrigerator, I'll pass on visiting Ken's House of Happiness.

Just this once.
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Josh-H

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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2009, 02:34:23 am »

Quote
Should I click?

guess not. Think I'll pass this time.

+1.
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Wild Nature Photo Travel

eronald

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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2009, 03:58:54 am »

Ok let's put this differently: Back in the days of film, slides had nice colorful imagery on them. Some very high-end people did differential processing, clipping off pieces of film and testing them, but mostly photographers used the color and exposure as shot and were happy with that. On the other hand, negative film had wide lattitude, and was usually shot with a view to a choice of exposure and filtration at print time.

Now, Adobe wants us to believe that what comes out of a digital camera is necessarily unusable because it's like negative film, and we *need* to get Lightroom or Photoshop and twiddle sliders like crazy to get a decent print from a Raw. The camera makers on the other hand seem to realize that many users, incluidng pros, want or need immediately usable previews and immediately printable imagery, right out of the camera, like slide film: Raw here is just for saving or tuning the shot.

Of course, it's clear that Fuji, Nikon and Canon and Sony have the ability to process Raw files, in spite of what Adobe wuld like us to believe. In fact as the originators of camera technology FNCS have the ability to deliver results better than any one-size fits all solution. And with in-camera video coming, I believe they now have a greater incentive to deliver good renderings. Jpegs and extended Jpegs will improve soon.

Assessing Jpeg quality is a perfectly reasonable subjective test of a camera. I'm astonished no reviewer did the KenRockwell test before. But then, nobody in the press never really asked whther there were really "real" WMDs in Irak, an equally reasonable albeit subjective assessment, which had consequences considerably more far-reaching.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 04:03:46 am by eronald »
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daws

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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2009, 05:12:54 am »

Quote from: eronald
Adobe wants us to believe that what comes out of a digital camera is necessarily unusable because it's like negative film, and we *need* to get Lightroom or Photoshop and twiddle sliders like crazy to get a decent print from a Raw.

It's worse than that. The truth is that Knoll, Schewe and the entire team of Adobe devs are well known as undercover agents for Apple. Have you ever seen Knoll and Steve Jobs in the same room at the same time? Of course not, because they're one in the same person. Laugh if you must, snicker if you will, but my own sister knows a guy who has a photo of Schewe before he glues on that beard in the morning, and he's clearly Steve Wozniak.



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digitaldog

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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2009, 11:24:59 am »

Quote from: eronald
Now, Adobe wants us to believe that what comes out of a digital camera is necessarily unusable because it's like negative film, and we *need* to get Lightroom or Photoshop and twiddle sliders like crazy to get a decent print from a Raw.

Horseshit! Look, if you want to go down that Adobe rabbit hole again, please do it elsewhere. So ALL the other Raw processors, all the cameras that produce access to the Raw are doing so because Adobe brainwashed photographers?

Quote
Assessing Jpeg quality is a perfectly reasonable subjective test of a camera.

Yes it is, if you shoot JPEGs. I suspect the vast majority of users here are not, and its not because they are drinking some Adobe flavored Koolaid.
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