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Author Topic: 48MP DSLR's on the way  (Read 21219 times)

Panopeeper

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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2008, 03:40:25 pm »

Quote from: Slough
In the real world CMOS rules
I guess that's the reason of Canon putting CCD in all Powershots and Nikon in the Coolpixes, as well as Hasselblad and Phase One using CCDs in their newest backs from Kodak respectively from Dalsa.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 05:06:51 pm »

Some comments from "Dalsa": http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx


Quote from: Panopeeper
I guess that's the reason of Canon putting CCD in all Powershots and Nikon in the Coolpixes, as well as Hasselblad and Phase One using CCDs in their newest backs from Kodak respectively from Dalsa.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 05:19:21 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
My take is that CMOS is inherently noisier than CCD technology but technology has been developed to reduce CMOS noise. With CMOS much of the electronic can be integrated on chip, which makes for more complex design but can reduce total manufacturing cost.

Ecomics are different for small vendors building small numbers of specialized devices and large vendors building large numbers of devices. There are many factors involved in MFDB:s having lower sensitivity than DSLRs and one of them is that most MFDB:s don't have microlenses.

Erik
Some comments from "Dalsa": http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2008, 08:17:01 pm »

Quote from: bjanes
This Dalsa paper summarizes the differences between CCD and CMOS and does not take sides, since Dalsa makes both types of chip. It would seem as if CMOS is better suited to 35mm style DSLRs while CCD is better suited for the characteristics of a medium format format.
For a general purpose DSLR where things like high ISO performance, frame rate, and battery life are all important, I would tend to agree with you. But I think there would be a market for a DSLR that optimized low-ISO image quality even at the expense of some of those other factors.  I won't be moving to MF anytime soon for a variety of reasons (not just cost), but if Nikon would offer a 24x36 "mini-MF" camera with similar imaging characteristics I'd for sure buy one.
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 08:20:43 pm »

Quote from: Slough
The Nikon D200 uses a CCD chip. The D300 uses a CMOS chip. Comparing the two, we see that at ISO 1600 the D200 produces horrible results, with softness, and luminance noise. At ISO 1600 the D300 produces much better results. Even at ISO 800 D200 sensor noise and loss of sharpness are obvious. Only when Nikon went to CMOS were they able to match the low noise results from Canon cameras. In the real world CMOS rules.
So I guess ISO 800 and up is the only thing that matters in your definition of the "real world"? This may come as a shock, but you don't speak for everybody.  

BTW using past-generation Nikon DSLR's is not a very good way to prove your point. There's a generation or two of R&D in-between the D200 and the D300.  A better comparison would be the D2x and the D200. The D2x was CMOS, yet it was routinely slammed for high ISO noise and was in fact a bit worse than the D200.
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melgross

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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 02:34:33 pm »

It seems to me that if you don't mind having a battery that gives only 150 to 200 shots, or having a battery three to four times larger, then CCD's would be fine for 35ff cameras. But I doubt that most people would like that.

Another factor is where the R&D dollars are going. CCD sensors cost more than CMOS sensors, because CMOS sensors are made on the same lines as any other chip. But CCD's are made so differently, that they need special lines. Because of that, the cost to manufacture is much higher, without many other benefits for most people. As for CCDs being used for most compact cameras, that's still true, but won't be for the future. These chips are so small, and so many cameras use them, that the cost is reasonable. The cheaper electronics in those cameras outweighs the slightly higher cost of manufacture for those small chips.

Because every db of noise reduction is needed for those small chips, CCD is still the way to go. we notice just how bad the higher ISO performance those cameras have, due to the small sensor, the cheap electronics, and the CCD.

As far as MF goes, the story is opposite to that. Price is almost of no object, and the best electronics is used, often with some form of built-in refrigeration to keep those large chips cool. CCD's get much noisier when they heat than do CMOS.

Eventually though, everything will move to CMOS, as their performance is rising faster than is that of CCD.

It's like film. Years ago, when digital began to get useful in the way of quality, about the time the Canon D30 came out, my Kodak partners (we processed professional kodachrome film, the only lab to do so) and I discussed the future of film and digital.

Their opinion was that film had come about to the end of its possible development. There was room for improvement, but no major performance enhancements were possible without much more effort that was affordable. Digital was seen as advancing so rapidly, that there was no way the money could be spent on major film development efforts.

The same thing is coming true for CCD vs CMOS. I've read  number of papers on this over the past few years. CCD has come a long way, and it's felt that it doesn't have that much more to go. A few years from now, and its advances will peter out. but CMOS is still in its infancy, and has a way to go.

There are actually some newer technologies in the lab that will give better results than either, but they are a ways off. They'll likely appear just when needed, as this is usually what happens.
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Wally

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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 04:23:07 pm »

what I would like to see is a DSLR with a 35mm sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) that did not have a bayer array and shot in Monochrome only where each pixel would only see and record brightness levels and not worry about colors/RGB. It would basically be just like shooting with B&W film, and I could use real filters on the lens. Canon, Nikon, Sony etc could just put this sensor into a DSLR body that they already make. Which would help keep costs down
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Slough

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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 05:05:10 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
So I guess ISO 800 and up is the only thing that matters in your definition of the "real world"? This may come as a shock, but you don't speak for everybody.  

BTW using past-generation Nikon DSLR's is not a very good way to prove your point. There's a generation or two of R&D in-between the D200 and the D300.  A better comparison would be the D2x and the D200. The D2x was CMOS, yet it was routinely slammed for high ISO noise and was in fact a bit worse than the D200.

Where did I say that ISO 800 and up is all that matters? Where did you get that crap from? I suggest you learn to read my posts and do not put words into my mouth.    

I use a D200 with which I am very happy. I do not need high ISO performance. I was addressing a separate point made by someone else.

The point about different generations has of course some merit. But the D2x has 13MP compared to 10MP in the D200. So it is a generation earlier, has a significant increase in pixel count, and still performs almost as well. Okay, far from proof, but it does look as if in 35mm cameras, CMOS has in practice, for whatever reasons, lower noise.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:08:52 pm by Slough »
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 10:59:26 pm »

Quote from: Wally
what I would like to see is a DSLR with a 35mm sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) that did not have a bayer array and shot in Monochrome only where each pixel would only see and record brightness levels and not worry about colors/RGB. It would basically be just like shooting with B&W film, and I could use real filters on the lens. Canon, Nikon, Sony etc could just put this sensor into a DSLR body that they already make. Which would help keep costs down

Yeah, me too -- that would be awesome.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2008, 12:22:10 am »

Quote from: Tony Beach
Yeah, me too -- that would be awesome.

I'd like to see an intelligent alien race, personally.
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melgross

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« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2008, 01:12:17 pm »

Quote from: Wally
what I would like to see is a DSLR with a 35mm sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) that did not have a bayer array and shot in Monochrome only where each pixel would only see and record brightness levels and not worry about colors/RGB. It would basically be just like shooting with B&W film, and I could use real filters on the lens. Canon, Nikon, Sony etc could just put this sensor into a DSLR body that they already make. Which would help keep costs down

In theory, there's no reason why each sensing site couldn't be used a single "pixel" in the image for B/W. It's done that way for color but it's the filters place above those sites that screws that idea up. So you really do still need the Bayer algorithms.

The question is whether there would be a big enough market for them to supply special sensing modules for this. They could easily do so if the market were big enough.

The advantages for B/W would be very noticeable. for one, no filters would increase sensitivity by at least one stop, more likely two,, lowering noise, and increasing dynamic range. Then you wouldn't need the antialiasing filters as there would be no need for de-mosaicing, which means no color aliasing causing by the Bayer transforms (though you would still get moire from the interaction of the sensor array with fine detail). Sharpness would increase dramatically.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 01:13:40 pm by melgross »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2008, 01:38:10 pm »

Kodak made such a beast a few years ago. The idea worked great, but they didn't sell enough of them to make it an economically viable market niche...
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melgross

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« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2008, 11:55:47 pm »

Quote from: GBPhoto
Here you go:
Monochrome P45

I've spoken to a few people about that one. I'd like to know someone who's interested enough to actually buy one. but even though I know a lot of people who do medium format digital, I don't know anyone who's interested enough to plunk down that much for what would be, today, a specialized back, only good some of the time. Lloyd himself tells me it's too pricy for him, though if there's enough interest, he might try to borrow one from where he gets his samples for reviews, and rents his other stuff from.

I do work with Leaf, but they have told me that the market is SO small, they can't be bothered. Even if they would, the price would be comparable.

A 5D mkII for an extra $1,000 might sell enough, but it's hard to say. They would have to do a special front glass without the anti-aliasing filter, but with the fluorine coating for the new anti dust system. Making just a few of those glasses, and just a few of the entire modules would be expensive. Whenever you remove a component from the assembly line for a "special" the price is much more than what it's worth, because of the extra labor involved.
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eronald

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« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2008, 06:56:58 pm »

Everyone was expecting the crossover for MF to occur at this generation. It didn't. If they decide to move to back-thinned sensor that might win another couple generations for our unlikely survivor, and by then, who knows, some other technology might come up to nix CMOS's time in the MF sun and replace CCDs.

Edmund

Quote from: melgross
Eventually though, everything will move to CMOS, as their performance is rising faster than is that of CCD.
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melgross

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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2008, 02:42:53 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Everyone was expecting the crossover for MF to occur at this generation. It didn't. If they decide to move to back-thinned sensor that might win another couple generations for our unlikely survivor, and by then, who knows, some other technology might come up to nix CMOS's time in the MF sun and replace CCDs.

Edmund

Of course, by "eventually", I mean the next few years, as I mentioned, there are newer technologies in the labs. But the newest tech just being understood, won't be available for some time.
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2008, 04:30:57 pm »

Quote from: Wally
what I would like to see is a DSLR with a 35mm sized sensor (CCD or CMOS) that did not have a bayer array and shot in Monochrome only where each pixel would only see and record brightness levels and not worry about colors/RGB. It would basically be just like shooting with B&W film, and I could use real filters on the lens. Canon, Nikon, Sony etc could just put this sensor into a DSLR body that they already make. Which would help keep costs down
I'd like the same , a real B&W  MF sensor

P45+ monochrome is too expensive  
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 04:33:33 pm by erick.boileau »
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Plekto

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« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2008, 08:42:28 pm »

http://www.mega-vision.com/products/Mono/Mono.htm

The real deal at significantly lower prices (IMO) than the P45 Mono.

Note - because there's no Bayer pattern, you only need actual film resolution to get well, film like results.  So that's 2460*3690 @ 3600DPI.  A modest 9MP.  The 11MP version would cover that quite nicely, with plenty of room to spare.
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