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Author Topic: Sony A900  (Read 64906 times)

douglasf13

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Sony A900
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2008, 05:02:39 pm »

Quote from: lovell
Sensors are not digital devices.  The output of a sensor is analog data.  Not until the A/D processes the signal does the data become digital.

If you took a old D200, which currently uses a 12 A/D, and changed out the A/D with a new one that provides 14 bit depth, the resulting images would in fact be 14 bit images, eventhough the original sensor is used.

Bit depth is not about sensors.  DR is a function of the sensor.  Bit depth is a function of the A/D converter.

  Sorry, I think we're just dealing with semantics, because the A/D converters are on the Sony chip, so let me say it a bit more clearly.   I'm suggesting that the D300's signal is 12bit after the A/D conversion, and then Nikon simply oversamples.  Therefore, it still gives a slight noise advantage in the shadows, and it also allows the camera to be called "14bit" for marketing reasons.

check this thread out for a better explanation:   http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...essage=30240318

  Essentially, the D3x sensor looks to be the A900's with a different CFA and AA filter, and the 1.8fps, 14bit option that is achieved by "taking four samples from for each pixel (they can be read non-destructively) and adding together."
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 05:06:17 pm by douglasf13 »
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Brammers

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« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2008, 04:02:07 am »

Quote from: michael
No, not really. I don't shoot wider than 24mm all that often. I can wait for the new Zeiss.

Very well.  Which CZ prime did you pick up?  I'm a huge fan of my 135, though it really should have SSM.  Very strange that our lens lineups are almost identical now.  Enjoy Antarctica!
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aaykay

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« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2008, 02:16:02 pm »

Quote from: Slough
Still, no tilt shift lenses, no 200mm micro (my favourite lens), no D3/D700 class body (which is arguably appealing to a wide market than the A900), so they have some way to go yet.

If you are willing to go used, then there is the Minolta 200mm f/4 Macro or if you go the 3rd party route, there is the Sigma 180mm APO f/5.6 Macro.

I think Sony will definitely re-release the 200mm f/4 Macro, sooner rather than later.  

Also, in their 2007 PMA show, they indicated their upcoming lenses in prototype form, which included several long lenses and also several high-end primes.  The bodies that were on display have already been released.  Several of the lenses on show have already been released or on the verge of being released, including the Carl Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar, the CZ 16-35 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar, the Sony 70-400 f/4-5.6G SSM etc.

There are several lenses if you notice intently, that could be the re-release/update of the prior Minolta 600mm f/4, a 400mm f/2.8, 200mm f/4 etc., with modern designs and SSM.


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aaykay

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« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2008, 02:26:49 pm »

Quote from: michael
The 70-200mm is a slightly higher quality lens, to be sure, but the 70-300 is more versatile - at least for me. Since I tend to shoot long much of the time I chose the 70-300.

Michael

If you don't mind the extra weight, then the upcoming (Jan '09) 70-400G f/4-5.6 SSM may also be a viable option.  

But it will have twice the weight of the 70-300G SSM (which I own too) and obviously the 70-400 will stand out more, due to its light color (unlike the black-colored 70-300G).

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores...552921665529564
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Slough

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« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2008, 02:49:37 pm »

Quote from: aaykay
If you are willing to go used, then there is the Minolta 200mm f/4 Macro or if you go the 3rd party route, there is the Sigma 180mm APO f/5.6 Macro.

I think Sony will definitely re-release the 200mm f/4 Macro, sooner rather than later.  

Also, in their 2007 PMA show, they indicated their upcoming lenses in prototype form, which included several long lenses and also several high-end primes.  The bodies that were on display have already been released.  Several of the lenses on show have already been released or on the verge of being released, including the Carl Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar, the CZ 16-35 f/2.8 SSM Vario-Sonnar, the Sony 70-400 f/4-5.6G SSM etc.

There are several lenses if you notice intently, that could be the re-release/update of the prior Minolta 600mm f/4, a 400mm f/2.8, 200mm f/4 etc., with modern designs and SSM.


Nothing to argue with there, except to say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I hope the plans come to fruition as more competition is good.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2008, 03:23:05 pm »

Hi,

I'm having the 400/4.5 APO in my hand and I'm very happy with it. Why? Because it's tremendously useful with the 1.4 converter. I would love to have it released with SSM but I suppose I could not afford a new version.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Slough
Nothing to argue with there, except to say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I hope the plans come to fruition as more competition is good.
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Slough

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« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2008, 04:59:32 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I'm having the 400/4.5 APO in my hand and I'm very happy with it. Why? Because it's tremendously useful with the 1.4 converter. I would love to have it released with SSM but I suppose I could not afford a new version.

Best regards
Erik

Ah yes, I have heard of that lens. Sometimes a Nikon user looks at Sony with envy.
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aaykay

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« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2008, 09:12:11 pm »

Quote from: Slough
Nothing to argue with there, except to say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

True, but many of these "birds in the bush" are already available "in the hand".  

Both of the camera bodies (A900 and A700), the 70-300G SSM lens, the 24-70 f/2.8 SSM Carl Zeiss lens, the 16-35 f/2.8 SSM Carl Zeiss lens, the 70-400 f/4-5.6G SSM lens are all now available.  

PMA should see a few more.  The system is building up strength like a gathering tsunami.  

The advantage here is that these are all ultra-modern 2008 designs, with all the design advantages that go with it, unlike competitive products whose mainstay are relatively older designs/products who are starting to show their age, under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors, especially in the areas away from the peachy center.  

The downside in the Sony system is that for folks who need specialized lenses like tilt/shift etc., there are none available (till date) in the Sony lens range, unless one is willing to shell out significant amounts for Hartblei T/S lenses available in the Sony/MinoltaMaxxum/Alpha mount.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 09:30:46 pm by aaykay »
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aaykay

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« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2008, 09:58:05 pm »

Sorry, I did some searching and did find the T/S lenses in the Sony/Minolta-Maxxum mount, and the prices did not look outrageous at all:

http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info...products_id=191
http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info...products_id=190

I don't have a requirement for t/s lenses yet but folks who are interested, might want to check the above links out.
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Stefan.Steib

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« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2008, 12:35:07 pm »

Jeff

I don´t know where your wisdom comes from....?  but we are already selling the new  2nd. generation of Hartblei Superrotators see here:  http://hartblei.de/en/index.htm

New Hartblei Range of Models available

München, 10.12.2008
We proudly present our new models with integrated Tripodmount/Stitchingclamp (parallaxfree Stichting even up to Macro) ,complete reworked mechanics Mechanik made of brass, new hardchromed Mounts to prevent wear and metal dirt on the sensor, Worldpremiere 2. Focusring with 120mm macro Closeup up to 75 cm and 1:5 ,further improved internal Antireflexcoating. The lenses are available immediately and can be rented at several of our dealers for testing. All Users of already sold (Zeiss)Hartblei lenses can have their lenses refurbished to the new status for 300 € each. And last but not least: We have a Christmas special again - all orders that reach us until the 31. of December 2008 will benefit with a 5% rebate on all prices.

The fact that we are still underepresentated in the US is 1. we stopped doing business with Kievcamera/Mike Fourman and 2. The distributors we contacted until today had some funny ideas about earnings
(one offered 65 % of the price before he would take the product. I thankfully refused ........)
So you can buy our lenses any time but by mailorder.

Stefan Steib  CEO Hartblei Kiev-Munich


Quote from: JeffKohn
You must have super-human eye sight, if you can judge critical focus more accurately through a DX viewfinder than with LiveView zoomed in to 100%.

 
The $8300 Euros was a promotional price on the "prototypes" which I'm not sure they ever actually shipped. I think the final lenses will be priced somewhat higher. I call these vaporware because they announced them quite some time ago but apparently have made no progress towards actually shipping them. At least when know Nikon is capable of shipping a D700x if they want to.


My 24 PC-E is better than my other lenses at 24mm (24-70 AF-S, Tokina 12-24), although it's very close with the 14-24 (which has slightly better contrast, but I think the PC-E has the edge in most other regards).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 12:40:52 pm by Stefan.Steib »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2008, 03:21:58 pm »

Hi,

I think there is also a shift lens from Schneider in KM/Alpha mount.

Now that we are living in the digital era we may also consider digital solutions. It is possible to use panoramic techniques instead of shifting lenses and there is also a possibility to focus merge images. Software I have tried is "Helicon Focus" and "Autopano Pro" but there are others. These techniques work with all lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: aaykay
Sorry, I did some searching and did find the T/S lenses in the Sony/Minolta-Maxxum mount, and the prices did not look outrageous at all:

http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info...products_id=191
http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info...products_id=190

I don't have a requirement for t/s lenses yet but folks who are interested, might want to check the above links out.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Slough

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Sony A900
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2008, 06:08:03 pm »

Quote from: aaykay
True, but many of these "birds in the bush" are already available "in the hand".  

Both of the camera bodies (A900 and A700), the 70-300G SSM lens, the 24-70 f/2.8 SSM Carl Zeiss lens, the 16-35 f/2.8 SSM Carl Zeiss lens, the 70-400 f/4-5.6G SSM lens are all now available.  

PMA should see a few more.  The system is building up strength like a gathering tsunami.

The Sony system does not have the lenses I need. Nikon does. Canon does. Period. No doubt for some the Sony system is the bees knees. But they have significant weaknesses.

Quote from: aaykay
The advantage here is that these are all ultra-modern 2008 designs, with all the design advantages that go with it, unlike competitive products whose mainstay are relatively older designs/products who are starting to show their age, under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors, especially in the areas away from the peachy center.

That sort of nonsense belongs on dpreview. To show you how silly that statement is, are you aware that many of the second hand Nikon lenses that go cheap on FleaBay are first rate performers on FX? Apparently the ~30 year old 75-150mm F3.5 zoom works very well on a D3x. They go for ~$100. I have one, and it is excellent. The 'old and past it' Nikon 17-35 F2.8 zoom performs very well on the Canon full frame cameras.

I could also mention that full frame is not new and high resolution fine grain B&W film has been around for decades.

And you clearly do not know that most Nikon pro grade lenses are very recent designs. Tilt shift: released in the last year or two. Long telephoto primes: released in the last year or two. 14-24mm zoom: released in the last year or two and with no equal from any other company. 60mm and 105mm micros: released in the last year or two.

And I hear that Canon L lenses are first rate including the supposedly old and hence past it ones.

I am sure Sony marketing like what you say but it is nonsense.

Quote from: aaykay
The downside in the Sony system is that for folks who need specialized lenses like tilt/shift etc., there are none available (till date) in the Sony lens range, unless one is willing to shell out significant amounts for Hartblei T/S lenses available in the Sony/MinoltaMaxxum/Alpha mount.

At present, no D700 class camera, no 200mm micro, no tilt shift, no 200mm F2, no long primes, no long pro zoom, those are massive gaps.

I hope that Sony fills those gaps so as to kick Nikon and Canon up the backside and keep competition alive.
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aaykay

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« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2008, 10:36:13 pm »

Quote from: Slough
The Sony system does not have the lenses I need. Nikon does. Canon does. Period. No doubt for some the Sony system is the bees knees. But they have significant weaknesses.

Agree.  Your needs are met via Canon/Nikon.  Good for you.    


Quote
I could also mention that full frame is not new and high resolution fine grain B&W film has been around for decades.

True.  Unfortunately, film and digital FF sensors behave differently, specifically when it comes to lens performance.  In film, you might have some relatively harmless vignetting, if light does not hit it head-on.  But with Digital sensors with their micro-lenses, light hitting obliquely will cause light-scatter, color-bleeding and vignetting and the edges/corners tend to become mush.....especially visible in FF sensors.  A whole different reaction from film.  Again, completely dependent on how the original lenses were designed and just because it works terrifically on film, does not automatically translate into high-performance on digital.

Quote
And you clearly do not know that most Nikon pro grade lenses are very recent designs. Tilt shift: released in the last year or two. Long telephoto primes: released in the last year or two. 14-24mm zoom: released in the last year or two and with no equal from any other company. 60mm and 105mm micros: released in the last year or two.

I am very familiar with the Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 and also its companion released at the same time, the 24-70 f/2.8.  Have even shot with them.  The Zeiss 24-70 might have the image quality edge here, but the Nikon is not too far behind.    But I am truly envious of the 14-24.

Quote
At present, no D700 class camera, no 200mm micro, no tilt shift, no 200mm F2, no long primes, no long pro zoom, those are massive gaps.

Again, no 200mm macro, unless you pick up a prior Minolta 200mm f/4 Macro.  No tilt/shift, unless you pick up a Hartblei, Schneider or other excellent aftermarket tilt/shift lenses.  No long primes either (like the prior Minolta 600mm f/4 or the 400mm f/4.5 APO), unless you decide to pick one up, used.  Or you are okay with picking up products like the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 or the Sigma 800mm f/5.6 etc.  

But I agree that Sony needs to speed up the introduction of their already announced lenses, than have their users rely on used or 3rd party products.
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Quentin

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« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2008, 07:25:05 am »

Quote from: Stefan.Steib
Jeff

I don´t know where your wisdom comes from....?  but we are already selling the new  2nd. generation of Hartblei Superrotators see here:  http://hartblei.de/en/index.htm

New Hartblei Range of Models available

München, 10.12.2008
We proudly present our new models with integrated Tripodmount/Stitchingclamp (parallaxfree Stichting even up to Macro) ,complete reworked mechanics Mechanik made of brass, new hardchromed Mounts to prevent wear and metal dirt on the sensor, Worldpremiere 2. Focusring with 120mm macro Closeup up to 75 cm and 1:5 ,further improved internal Antireflexcoating. The lenses are available immediately and can be rented at several of our dealers for testing. All Users of already sold (Zeiss)Hartblei lenses can have their lenses refurbished to the new status for 300 € each. And last but not least: We have a Christmas special again - all orders that reach us until the 31. of December 2008 will benefit with a 5% rebate on all prices.

The fact that we are still underepresentated in the US is 1. we stopped doing business with Kievcamera/Mike Fourman and 2. The distributors we contacted until today had some funny ideas about earnings
(one offered 65 % of the price before he would take the product. I thankfully refused ........)
So you can buy our lenses any time but by mailorder.

Stefan Steib  CEO Hartblei Kiev-Munich

We need some wider field of view tilt / shift lenses - a 28m or 24mm would be good, provided the price is not too eye-watering... The Schneider 28mm does shift but not tilt.

Quentin
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:32:57 am by Quentin »
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ziocan

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« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2008, 12:20:57 am »

Quote from: Slough
And you clearly do not know that most Nikon pro grade lenses are very recent designs. Tilt shift: released in the last year or two. Long telephoto primes: released in the last year or two. 14-24mm zoom: released in the last year or two and with no equal from any other company. 60mm and 105mm micros: released in the last year or two.
You forgot to mention all the other primes from 20mm to 135mm. circa 1985/1990.

But I know, photographers hardly use those. why bother....

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Slough

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« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2008, 03:24:10 am »

Quote from: ziocan
You forgot to mention all the other primes from 20mm to 135mm. circa 1985/1990.

But I know, photographers hardly use those. why bother....

And your point is? If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the manual focus 28mm F2.8 AIS is a superb optic with an excellent close focus performance. The 'old and past it' 35mm F1.4 AIS is also very good. The 50mm F1.5 AFS is brand new. The 85mm F1.4 is as good as the Zeiss and cheaper. Oh and Nikon users have access to Zeiss primes too.
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ziocan

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« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2008, 10:18:31 am »

Quote from: Slough
And your point is? If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the manual focus 28mm F2.8 AIS is a superb optic with an excellent close focus performance. The 'old and past it' 35mm F1.4 AIS is also very good. The 50mm F1.5 AFS is brand new. The 85mm F1.4 is as good as the Zeiss and cheaper. Oh and Nikon users have access to Zeiss primes too.
I did not say they were bad lenses.
We were talking how ancient the design was.
Of course they still work fine, but I bet, the finally long due but not yet available on shops 50mm 1.4, will works better than all those older ones.
All those good old lenses are long due for a refresh, that is my point, they are noisy and slow to focus, not optimized for digital. some of those primes still shows colors shifts from time to time on FF digital.
I had quite a few of them.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 10:22:09 am by ziocan »
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Slough

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« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2008, 01:35:46 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I did not say they were bad lenses.
We were talking how ancient the design was.
Of course they still work fine, but I bet, the finally long due but not yet available on shops 50mm 1.4, will works better than all those older ones.
All those good old lenses are long due for a refresh, that is my point, they are noisy and slow to focus, not optimized for digital. some of those primes still shows colors shifts from time to time on FF digital.
I had quite a few of them.

Here is what you said:

"The advantage here is that these are all ultra-modern 2008 designs, with all the design advantages that go with it, unlike competitive products whose mainstay are relatively older designs/products who are starting to show their age, under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors, especially in the areas away from the peachy center."

I assumed from the above that you were referring to optical quality when you used the phrase "under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors". Obviously not then.
 
FYI the 28mm AFD F2.8 lens is optically inferior lens to the much older 28mm F2.8 AIS lens. More recent does not necessarily equal better. Sometimes quality is reduced to produce a more affordable lens.

If you want a weakness in the Nikon system, think about small fast wide primes. No auto-focus lenses, and one manual focus one. Not that it bothers me, but some people change system for that reason.
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aaykay

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« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2008, 01:48:37 pm »

Quote from: Slough
Oh and Nikon users have access to Zeiss primes too.

If you are willing to do manual-focusing, then yes, you have access to these Zeiss lenses, where Zeiss plays the part of a 3rd party supplier (a higher-end version of a Sigma or a Tamron).  Obviously without any manufacturer blessing or support.

The difference with the Zeiss lenses in the Sony range, is that these are natively made for the mount, have full Auto-focus capability and are promoted/blessed by the camera manufacturer.  They are designed by Zeiss in Oberkochen, employ the Zeiss Schott glass and T* coating,  and the pro-grade Zeiss lenses (which does not include the CZ 16-80 APS-C lens) are manufactured in Japan in a specialized area within a high-end Sony (former Minolta) "G" lens plant, employing proprietary Zeiss equipment and re-inforced by the Zeiss 135-point quality checks, done directly by Zeiss staff.    

Every single one of these Sony/Zeiss lenses, also have a unique Zeiss serial#, in addition to (and different from), the unique Sony Serial#.  

Thus "access to" Zeiss products and Zeiss functioning as an in-house designer, are two completely different things.
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aaykay

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« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2008, 01:50:27 pm »

Quote from: Slough
Here is what you said:

"The advantage here is that these are all ultra-modern 2008 designs, with all the design advantages that go with it, unlike competitive products whose mainstay are relatively older designs/products who are starting to show their age, under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors, especially in the areas away from the peachy center."

I assumed from the above that you were referring to optical quality when you used the phrase "under the unblinking glare of high resolution FF sensors". Obviously not then.
 
FYI the 28mm AFD F2.8 lens is optically inferior lens to the much older 28mm F2.8 AIS lens. More recent does not necessarily equal better. Sometimes quality is reduced to produce a more affordable lens.

If you want a weakness in the Nikon system, think about small fast wide primes. No auto-focus lenses, and one manual focus one. Not that it bothers me, but some people change system for that reason.

Sorry, you seem to be mixing up 2 users.  Several of the above are my quotes and I am not the one you are replying to.  
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