Why bother with the G10? Use THIS for "P&S"

[lensfactory]

oops..dbl post

[Ray]

My guess is that a comparitive digital P&S is still a few years away. They ALL have shutter lag and slow buffers...

Does anyone here have any insights into the technical problems of designing a P&S with negligible shutter lag, a large, fast buffer and a fast frame rate? Such a camera would certainly be more expensive, but what about the weight and bulk? Perhaps an LX3 with the additional circuitry to allow for a bigger and faster buffer and negligible shutter lag, would end up being about the same size and weight of a G10.

Just curious what the problems are. The benefits would be very significant, especially considering the auto-align features in Photoshop which make possible the merging to HDR of bracketed hand-held shots.

[Paul Sumi]

I'm still waiting for something the same size and quality of my Olympus XA film camera - now that is a good camera.

I also had one of those (might still have it stored away with the rest of my film cameras) and thought it was brilliant for what it was.  But what I'd really love is something like a digital Leica/Minolta CL (with or without interchangeable lenses) with a proper optical viewfinder along with the LCD display.

Paul

[Plekto]

Does anyone here have any insights into the technical problems of designing a P&S with negligible shutter lag, a large, fast buffer and a fast frame rate?

The best of the digital pocket cameras are the Fujis due to how their sensors work.  They are the best for low light, but they are NOT going to be as good as a SLR.  The E420 is good merely because of its size.  The problem with this sort of use is that you either are talking about an old 35mm pancake lens or similar.  But this means a motor in the body or full manual AND a nasty conversion factor.  Of the models that I like for this sort of thing, my vote goes to the smaller Sony/Minolta's, because of the dirt cheap used lenses.

The best pocket camera for this sort of use is a range finder with film.  It's dead simple, can usually be run with higher speed film for low light, has zero lag, and no buffer issues.  IIRC, a couple of the more modern ones have built in winders and so on as well.  

http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/misc/AnscAgfa.html
Or something similar.

Or, just get this when it comes out:
http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Fuji_GF670
Fits in your pocket, should take awesome pictures.  I just hope it doesn't cost a fortune...  If it's under $1000, I'll get one myself...    
(automatic everything folding 120 camera - it has me drooling already)

[BernardLanguillier]

Does anyone here have any insights into the technical problems of designing a P&S with negligible shutter lag, a large, fast buffer and a fast frame rate?

Ray,

The shutter lag of recent high end compacts is actually close to zero, faster that DSLRs since there is no mirror. What delays the whole process is contrast based AF.

I don't think that there is any technical problem with including a larger buffer, it must be a cost issue.

As far as frame rates is concerned, I am not sure why they cannot be made to be faster. It could be that RAW files are in fact processed to avoid showing the extend of the disaster with noise... wihch would explain why it takes more time.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Martin Kristiansen]

I have the G9 and really don't like it. I don't mean that camera as opposed to another p&s, I mean the whole p&s thing.

It sounded great but I just cannot work with it. You press to shoot and then the camera thinks for a bit and the moment is gone. You need to shift focus in a hurry but there is no focus ring you can give a quick manual shift on. Your subject is very strongly backlit and you need to quickly overexpose, now what. The camera is off and you see something interesting so you turn it on and wait as the the lens pokes it way out of its little hidey hole.  Perhaps there are ways to figure all this out but it was beyond me. A multitude of tiny little buttons and a viewfinder from hell. I gave the camera to my wife.

I really don't mean that all you guys are wrong about this, it just does not work for me and I am sure that I am not alone on this.

[lensfactory]

I have the G9 and really don't like it. I don't mean that camera as opposed to another p&s, I mean the whole p&s thing.

It sounded great but I just cannot work with it. You press to shoot and then the camera thinks for a bit and the moment is gone. You need to shift focus in a hurry but there is no focus ring you can give a quick manual shift on. Your subject is very strongly backlit and you need to quickly overexpose, now what. The camera is off and you see something interesting so you turn it on and wait as the the lens pokes it way out of its little hidey hole.  Perhaps there are ways to figure all this out but it was beyond me. A multitude of tiny little buttons and a viewfinder from hell. I gave the camera to my wife.

I really don't mean that all you guys are wrong about this, it just does not work for me and I am sure that I am not alone on this.

Thats the reason of this post/thread really. That I believe the only (afoordable) option for a small digital camera is a small SLR with a small Lens.
 They just haven't made a P&S yet that doesn't lag. I suppose for a lot of landscape users that is fine, as they have a bit longer 'moments' to capture.

[Ben Rubinstein]

Thats the reason of this post/thread really. That I believe the only (afoordable) option for a small digital camera is a small SLR with a small Lens.
 They just haven't made a P&S yet that doesn't lag. I suppose for a lot of landscape users that is fine, as they have a bit longer 'moments' to capture.

No one going to mention the opportunities offered by the new m4/3 standard? Much better than the E-420 for that genre, at least the potential is.

[DarkPenguin]

No one going to mention the opportunities offered by the new m4/3 standard? Much better than the E-420 for that genre, at least the potential is.

In one of the other G10 threads I mentioned it.  The only one that exists so far isn't all that small and there are questions about lens quality.

Edit: Added an 'n'.

[httivals]

One very viable way of using the G10, is to set the custom functions (there are 2) to particular zoom focal lengths (the CFs remember that, such as 35mm and 50mm equivalents).  Then you have 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm preset.   When you want to do quick street shooting, you preset manual focus at about 2 meters, and using f4 (or maybe f4.5 for the 50mm equivalent), you will then have virtually everything in focus, given the enormous depth of field with the small sensors.  To speed up shooting even more, you can preset white balance to daylight, tungsten, whatever.  That will take away the additional pause while the camera calculates auto white balance.  If you do this, while shooting RAW, then you have an extremely fast reacting, with virtually no shutter lag, rangefinder.  I will probably buy some CV viewfinders to use with it in this manner.

The shutter lag of recent high end compacts is actually close to zero, faster that DSLRs since there is no mirror. What delays the whole process is contrast based AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Ben Rubinstein]

In one of the other G10 threads I mentioned it.  The only one that exists so far isn't all that small and there are questions about lens quality.

Edit: Added an 'n'.

As I said, the potential...    

Actually looking forward to the Olympus and the upcoming pany pancake. Added to which the adaptors for M lenses and others already exist for the pany. Good times ahead!

[BJL]

No one going to mention the opportunities offered by the new m4/3 standard? Much better than the E-420 for that genre, at least the potential is.

Pom,
    good to hear from you, and I agree that m4/3 has at least the potential to provide some pocketable cameras (or at least "jacket pocketable") with better performance than the current smaller sensor high end compacts like the G10. For one thing, designing a good quality compact normal prime should be easier for m4/3 than for 4/3 or "APS-C" SLRs, because m4/3 allows the lens to sit far closer to the sensor.

I wonder how small a high quality EVF can be: the Panasonic G10's EVF seems to be the best EVF so far in a still camera, but at the cost of not being as compact as some would like. Maybe offering a VF image size bigger than in any 4/3 or APS-C SLR is the reason for its bulk.

[lensfactory]

How ironic.... I bought an extra 420 and 25mm lens for my father's b-day. He beat me to the punch and had already bought himself one.I figure I'll get the LX3 as 24mm and 2.0 sounds great for a small camera, and i've had good experience with the LX1 and LX2.

[httivals]

Lensfactory: I find your post offensive.  This entire thread now looks like you are just trying to drum up demand to sell your item.  If one is looking at a DSLR, there are many other products I'd rather have than the Oly 420 and 25mm lens, including, for instance, a Canon Rebel xsi and a Canon 35mm f2 lens, or a Pentax with one of the Pentax limited primes and IS built into the body.  If one is going to get the Oly 420, why not buy an Oly 520 at Amazon (they're going for very low prices) and get IS built into the body and use that with the 25mm pancake?

How ironic.... I bought an extra 420 and 25mm lens for my father's b-day. He beat me to the punch and had already bought himself one. I know this isn't the forum...but if you're toronto area and want a deal on this>>>

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/pho/915046134.html

Cant return it ....I figure I'll get the LX3 as 24mm and 2.0 sounds great for a small camera, and i've had good experience with the LX1 and LX2.

[lensfactory]

Lensfactory: I find your post offensive.  This entire thread now looks like you are just trying to drum up demand to sell your item.  If one is looking at a DSLR, there are many other products I'd rather have than the Oly 420 and 25mm lens, including, for instance, a Canon Rebel xsi and a Canon 35mm f2 lens, or a Pentax with one of the Pentax limited primes and IS built into the body.  If one is going to get the Oly 420, why not buy an Oly 520 at Amazon (they're going for very low prices) and get IS built into the body and use that with the 25mm pancake?

Those other's aren't as small... My post was about an alternative to the G10.In answer to your question why not get the Oly 520,the e-520 is larger...and to get it with the 25mm lens, more expensive.

 I'm sure people are a bit more discerning that they can tell if this is all just some pitch to sell some equipment. I'm trying to be helpful....
I'll have no problem selling it in Toronto at that price.
Is everyone in this forum so suspicious and negative?
Personally I find THAT offensive.

[DarkPenguin]

Those other's aren't as small... My post was about an alternative to the G10.In answer to your question why not get the Oly 520,the e-520 is larger...and to get it with the 25mm lens, more expensive.

 I'm sure people are a bit more discerning that they can tell if this is all just some pitch to sell some equipment. I'm trying to be helpful....
I'll have no problem selling it in Toronto at that price.
Is everyone in this forum so suspicious and negative?
Personally I find THAT offensive.

Only of people who only post in the thread where they're trying to sell something.  

What about the fixed lens Sigma?  Has a much better FL for my tastes.  Slower camera, tho.

[BernardLanguillier]

One very viable way of using the G10, is to set the custom functions (there are 2) to particular zoom focal lengths (the CFs remember that, such as 35mm and 50mm equivalents).  Then you have 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm preset.   When you want to do quick street shooting, you preset manual focus at about 2 meters, and using f4 (or maybe f4.5 for the 50mm equivalent), you will then have virtually everything in focus, given the enormous depth of field with the small sensors.  To speed up shooting even more, you can preset white balance to daylight, tungsten, whatever.  That will take away the additional pause while the camera calculates auto white balance.  If you do this, while shooting RAW, then you have an extremely fast reacting, with virtually no shutter lag, rangefinder.  I will probably buy some CV viewfinders to use with it in this manner.

I'll probably devote C2 to this, good idea indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Paulo Bizarro]

Well...I'm sure it WOULD fit in that bag, but that's hardly the point. The camera isn't as small as the G10, of course, but for just a bit more size you get all the functionality of an SLR (frames per second, shutter responsiveness, viewfinder etc.).
I have a small 'diesel' brand bag that I bought in thailand that fits perfect and slings quickly over my shoulder.

Has anyone else bought this camera/lens combo?

Well... maybe you should actually try to fit the E-420 plus 25mm pancake lens into the D-Rez10. It will not fit. And no, that is not hardly the point. The point is, I can carry the G10 in a small belt pack, something I would not be able to do with the E-420 plus 25mm pancake lens. For that, I would need a small shoulder bag, or holster style bag.

To each its own, of course.

[lensfactory]

Well... maybe you should actually try to fit the E-420 plus 25mm pancake lens into the D-Rez10. It will not fit. And no, that is not hardly the point. The point is, I can carry the G10 in a small belt pack, something I would not be able to do with the E-420 plus 25mm pancake lens. For that, I would need a small shoulder bag, or holster style bag.

To each its own, of course.

I fit it in a small belt pack....Ia a leather fanny pack I got at a garage sale.Maybe not AS small as yours, but that's because the Oly isnt as small as the G10...
...obviously

The point is ANY DSLR is going to be better than any P&S in so many ways. Except for size...but this one comes close!

[Deep]

Anyone who makes such a post and its their very first post on a message board such as this and pisses on the solid rep of its founder in Michael and I say.... BULL SHIT!! Sounds like someone works for Olympus or just has a hate on for Canon. As my gran'pappy said believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. Lots of luck on me ever dropping a nickel on Olympus junk theres other factors to consider such as brand rep, durability, consitent customer satisfaction etc etc I could go on but theres already too much to that comment for Olympus to stand up against so I'll stop.

Dear oh dear!  What an unfriendly post.  Usually, I'd just let this go, realising some people have stronger blinkers on than others but I've got to take you on with a few points here.
1) "Olympus junk .... etc.  You clearly have forgotten all the recent issues that Canon have had with tilted viewfinders and focus issues on their flagship models.  Plus, the build quality on the cheaper Olympus cameras/lenses is way better than the cheaper Canons (just go into a shop and handle one and you'll understand).  Actually, your comments have blatant bias and we could go into this in great depth but, basically, you're either badly informed or mischievous.  I use both Canon and Olympus systems so I do not consider I can be biased here.
 2) The original post made sense to the poster and will to many others too.  It is interesting how people who are fans of (usually) Canon and Nikon endlessly point out the disadvantages of the smaller sensors on the 4/3 system cameras compared to the APS based sensors.  They are right that there are disadvantages but there are, equally, advantages.  Now, someone has pointed out an example in which the shoe is on the other foot, in that the Olympus 420 has a much bigger sensor than the G10 with clear advantages and you have got all defensive over the smaller sensor.  Very amusing.
3) Someone makes a reasonable first post and you go straight into attack mode.  That's just plain unfriendly and not called for at all.
4) Everything in having camera choice is about finding the compromise that fits you best.  We all have to give up something to get something else.  In this case, it is about what you do not want to give up in a small camera in a modest price range, possibly the trickiest part of the market.  All cameras mentioned in this thread are great, all can produce large, good quality prints (surely the important thing on a "landscape" forum?).  All have their limitations and for some, the option posted in the start of this thread certainly overcomes some of the limitations of the tiny sensored G10, even if it then introduces other limitations.  Hammering someone because of what you choose personally is futile and helps no one.