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Author Topic: Hasselblad H3DII-39/50 with 28, 35, HTS 1.5 and HC 2.2/100  (Read 12472 times)

jsch

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Hasselblad H3DII-39/50 with 28, 35, HTS 1.5 and HC 2.2/100
« on: November 07, 2008, 03:07:53 am »

Hello,

I'm coming from many years with Hasselblad and Sinar (film), moved 2004 to Canon digital. At the moment I work with EOS 1DsMkII and my main lenses are TS-E 24/45 and 24-70/2.8L, EF 85/1.2. I do mainly architecture and people. I decided against Alpa, Hy6, Sinar and Mamiya already! I could live with Canon. But I want to solve some issues:
- Every image taken with the TS-E's and the 24-70L need a lot of post production: PTLens, lens correction, noise reduction, stiching for higher resolution.
- For architecture jobs that means a lot of time in front of the computer and I would like to reduce that time.

Here are my questions:
- Who has experience in using the Hasselblad for architecture? Is postproduction (almost) just RAW conversion and does DAC do the trick?
- Can you compare the look of the HC 2.2/100@2.8 to the one of the EF 85/1.2@1.4?
- Is it so that the Hasselblad lenses geometrically well corrected? Resolution is not so much my point. I'm looking for undistorted images without CA - in architecture and people photography.

Any real experience is welcome.

Thank you,
Johannes
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Dustbak

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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2008, 03:48:28 am »

I use H but don't do a lot of architecture. I do some interior which I intent to grow. I use the 35 as well as the 50 for that purpose quite often (50 either the prime or the zoom).

Considering distortion. DAC does an excellent job on distortion. Sure, you have to be really precise and careful when taking the image. If you do, DAC will take out the lens distortion up to a level that I consider to be almost impossible with PS. The 35 becomes a very good lens with regards to lines/geometry. I have the 28 on its way and have been told by several people whose advice I trust it is better than the 35 (after corrections) so I am looking forward to that.

CA is an issue I have most problems with when doing catalogue shots on white. Especially when doing multishot this becomes really apparent. For this purpose alone I upgraded my older 384 toward the 39MS so I could have the advantage of DAC to get rid of CA. Sofar I have not done much since I only got the multishot last week but sofar I have not seen much CA anymore. CA isn't a real big issue when putting the files through Flexcolor or Phocus (I still use Flexcolor mainly when processing through Hasselblad software).

I don't have experience with the 85/1.2 because I use Nikon. I do have the 85/1.4. Hard to say whether the 100/2.2 looks like that. I feel it has a bit more compression (which it should). Depth of field feels like it is shallower. I find the rendering of the 100 very pleasing. It has a very soft drop off from sharp to OOF. Difficult to compare really. I like it a lot. It has replaced the 80 (which I consider to be inferior to all other HC lenses) as my 'standard' lens. It is very versatile, going from nice portrait lens (from 2.2 to 4.0) to general purpose sharp beast (from 5.6 up to 11.0).

I wish post production was just raw conversion but I must say Hasselblad does provide some neat tools to save time and generate time to spend on other stuff. CA, distortion and (recently) moire are part of that. Naturally no tool can make up for or cope entirely with sloppy work but I am sure you are very well aware of that.

No experience yet with the HTS but I will surely try it out. Nick-T has experience with that and maybe he can tell more for your purpose.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 03:50:38 am by Dustbak »
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2008, 04:13:45 am »

Quote from: jsch
Hello,

I'm coming from many years with Hasselblad and Sinar (film), moved 2004 to Canon digital. At the moment I work with EOS 1DsMkII and my main lenses are TS-E 24/45 and 24-70/2.8L, EF 85/1.2. I do mainly architecture and people. I decided against Alpa, Hy6, Sinar and Mamiya already! I could live with Canon. But I want to solve some issues:
- Every image taken with the TS-E's and the 24-70L need a lot of post production: PTLens, lens correction, noise reduction, stiching for higher resolution.
- For architecture jobs that means a lot of time in front of the computer and I would like to reduce that time.

Here are my questions:
- Who has experience in using the Hasselblad for architecture? Is postproduction (almost) just RAW conversion and does DAC do the trick?
- Can you compare the look of the HC 2.2/100@2.8 to the one of the EF 85/1.2@1.4?
- Is it so that the Hasselblad lenses geometrically well corrected? Resolution is not so much my point. I'm looking for undistorted images without CA - in architecture and people photography.

Any real experience is welcome.

Thank you,
Johannes

I use the H3D for a lot of architecture and interior
The DAC tool is incredible, before it was out I would spend at least 20 min on each files to straighten them and still could not get it perfect
because the 35mm is a retro focal lens it has some moustache distortion, not easy to get perfect if a straight line is anywhere close to the edge of the photo
I am waiting for the shift mechanism, which I understand is also calibrated and distortions will automatically corrected.
CA has not been a problem what so ever
good luck
marc

 
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jørn.kiel

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Hasselblad H3DII-39/50 with 28, 35, HTS 1.5 and HC 2.2/100
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2008, 05:01:11 am »

Hi Johannes,

i have the H3D 39 with both lenses and the HC 28mm was the reason i choose Hasselblad. Outstanding quality. It shows some purple fringing on hard edges wich are easily corrected with a cheap action called
Color fringe reducer by http://www.shaystephens.com.

DAC is perfect. The HC 100 is nice but has a different look than the Canon 1.2/85, at least for my taste. The Canon is closer to the old Hasselblad F 2/110 lens, the HC 100 is not that special but a great lens, too. I like the HC 150 more.

The look of the Hasselblad files is so great, skin an pastel tones are spot on. I never had problems with color tones. The DR is very good and you have a lot of headroom for correction within Phocus.

Take a look at flickr.com and search for HC 100 / H3D / HC28 and will find some real world samples to compare.

jørn
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 07:06:35 am »

There is a short video of Nick here describing the HTS and its use...

http://www.hasselblad.com/about-hasselblad...highlights.aspx

Look for the link on the right hand side.

Best



David


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Khun_K

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Hasselblad H3DII-39/50 with 28, 35, HTS 1.5 and HC 2.2/100
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 12:04:38 pm »

Quote from: jsch
Hello,

I'm coming from many years with Hasselblad and Sinar (film), moved 2004 to Canon digital. At the moment I work with EOS 1DsMkII and my main lenses are TS-E 24/45 and 24-70/2.8L, EF 85/1.2. I do mainly architecture and people. I decided against Alpa, Hy6, Sinar and Mamiya already! I could live with Canon. But I want to solve some issues:
- Every image taken with the TS-E's and the 24-70L need a lot of post production: PTLens, lens correction, noise reduction, stiching for higher resolution.
- For architecture jobs that means a lot of time in front of the computer and I would like to reduce that time.

Here are my questions:
- Who has experience in using the Hasselblad for architecture? Is postproduction (almost) just RAW conversion and does DAC do the trick?
- Can you compare the look of the HC 2.2/100@2.8 to the one of the EF 85/1.2@1.4?
- Is it so that the Hasselblad lenses geometrically well corrected? Resolution is not so much my point. I'm looking for undistorted images without CA - in architecture and people photography.

Any real experience is welcome.

Thank you,
Johannes
I use them all but the HTS 1.5, which is not out yet, I believe. The Canon TS-E lenses are OK, soft corners, and when shifted, visible poorer quality and very soft, with more raw processing it can get better, but not close to the regular fixed lenses, but when you have to work fast and not requiring super big image, the TS-E is an acceptable solution for some works, it is a subjective issue. The 24-70L is quite sharp, but distortion towards 70mm is not good, for portrait, avoid the face too close to the corner.  
On the other hand, the H3D-39 and the lenses you mentioned are interesting, combine with the Phocus, they are in deed very good. The HCD 28 is quite sharp and compact, much smaller and lighter than the HC 35 and the DAC improve all the distortion control except the really close focus area. Since the HCD 28 is significant wider than the TSE-24, and of higher pixel counts when using with H3D-39, you can level the HCD28 for the shoot, and crop the image so it can get the perspective corrected look similar to that you try to get from the Canon and TSE-24 and without doubt, much sharper from corner to corner and visibly better final image. Of course, not much people may like the idea to shot a 39mp camera to get a file size similar to 16mp camera, but within the lines of your question, this is one alternative, and a very good one.
When DAC applied, you can see the very responsive correction in work, distortion and field curvature will be mostly corrected, I don't find fringe to be an issue even without DAC but I don't see why to disable the DAC. The 100/2.2 is a very good lens, with the soft focus area very close the feel like the 85/1.2 and both are very sharp. You can of course see the file produce from HC 100/2.2 + H3D-39 visibly sharper, but the 85/1.2 is perhaps just as sharp but may be the particular Canon CMOS design not able bring out the best result of this lens. I am also using 85/1.2L with 1Ds MK3, and it is among some lenses from the Canon line to hold up very well with the 22mp sensor.
Todays raw converter is so good that no longer the character of each lens has so much to do on the final image as they used to on films, so as the contrast of the lenses.  I have never tried the HC lenses on film and I typically just enable all the DAC corrections on the Phocus so may be all the little flaws of the lenses were well corrected.  Todays digital camera system come as a total package that is from the lens, camera, and software, and we may start to see the benefit of total integration system form Hasselblad, which if the HTS 1.5 is as good as Hasselblad claimed, may in deed be a very competitive system.  
On the other hand, I also use and shot many images from varies systems, P45+ on Contax 645 and Sinar eMotion 75LV/Hy6, even they don't have the DAC, but the result is just as good. Beautiful images!  At the end of the day, may be it needs to see beyond the 645/6X6 system itself, of course if you will be needing it, there are benefits that a digital backs has its choice to settle on which camera you like, or vice versa. Hasselblad's total integration system has its merit and the result of final image is nothing to critique.  The Sinar system is most flexible, they go to varies camera systems within the same house, and accept broader accessories.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 06:06:53 pm »

WAUW!


I cannot say anything else. I just did a table which has some really straight lines. Since it is a famous design for its straight lines the client wanted I really paid attention to that. I did this one with the H2/CF39/HC100

I did one shot DNG -> PS. This one had a bunch of CA (yellow & magenta) and distortion. It took me about 30 minutes in PS to come up with the image attached. Something I am totally not happy with. I know I have been kind of sloppy with removing the CA etc.. I had to attack the distortion with PS which was a combination of several corrections and finally some free transform. Still not happy to the point I know I can only do more damage than good to the image.

The other attached image has been processed through Flexcolor (still my favorite). With DAC. No CA!, minor distortion mainly because of the angle I had to place my camera in. I only had to a mild correction in PS to get it really good.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 06:09:26 pm by Dustbak »
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 09:54:13 pm »

Quote from: Dustbak
WAUW!


I cannot say anything else. I just did a table which has some really straight lines. Since it is a famous design for its straight lines the client wanted I really paid attention to that. I did this one with the H2/CF39/HC100

I did one shot DNG -> PS. This one had a bunch of CA (yellow & magenta) and distortion. It took me about 30 minutes in PS to come up with the image attached. Something I am totally not happy with. I know I have been kind of sloppy with removing the CA etc.. I had to attack the distortion with PS which was a combination of several corrections and finally some free transform. Still not happy to the point I know I can only do more damage than good to the image.

The other attached image has been processed through Flexcolor (still my favorite). With DAC. No CA!, minor distortion mainly because of the angle I had to place my camera in. I only had to a mild correction in PS to get it really good.

Hi Dustbak
Looks like something went wrong with the perspective in the fixed photo, the leg on the far right (further away from the camera) is now longer than
the one on the left (closer to the camera)
I never seem to have trouble with CA though
cheers
Marc
(mooie tafel van Gerrit!)

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aaronleitz

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 10:17:25 pm »

I have been following this thread with interest as I also shoot mainly architecture and have been looking at various MFD systems and how they cope with distortion.

Dustbak - would you mind posting the original, uncorrected image of the table to compare the distortion and CA with your corrected images?

Marc - I was just looking through your spread in this month's AD. Very nice work! Did you shoot those images with the H3D?
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 02:40:50 am »

Quote from: aaronleitz
I have been following this thread with interest as I also shoot mainly architecture and have been looking at various MFD systems and how they cope with distortion.

Dustbak - would you mind posting the original, uncorrected image of the table to compare the distortion and CA with your corrected images?

Marc - I was just looking through your spread in this month's AD. Very nice work! Did you shoot those images with the H3D?

thanks!
Yes shot it with the H3D 39
Did not know that it was out yet.
and thanks for letting me know.
cheers
m

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Dustbak

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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 03:23:53 am »

Quote from: marc gerritsen
Hi Dustbak
Looks like something went wrong with the perspective in the fixed photo, the leg on the far right (further away from the camera) is now longer than
the one on the left (closer to the camera)
I never seem to have trouble with CA though
cheers
Marc
(mooie tafel van Gerrit!)

Marc,

They are both fixed. One via Flex the other via PS. The PS one indeed has a weird leg. The PS one was done via DNG so has no DAC which leaves quite a bit of CA.


Ray
(Goed gezien
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Dustbak

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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2008, 03:26:30 am »

Quote from: aaronleitz
I have been following this thread with interest as I also shoot mainly architecture and have been looking at various MFD systems and how they cope with distortion.

Dustbak - would you mind posting the original, uncorrected image of the table to compare the distortion and CA with your corrected images?

Marc - I was just looking through your spread in this month's AD. Very nice work! Did you shoot those images with the H3D?


Aaron,

The first image is more or less the one that comes out of flexcolor. The only correction was about +8 vertical in lens correction in PS. The other corrections where just minor cosmetics no CA or other distortion, etc...

The image below is how it comes directly from Flexcolor. No adjustments or touchup.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 03:32:39 am by Dustbak »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2008, 03:54:08 am »

The image below is a crop from one of the legs in the back where the CA is quite obvious.

The back legs are OOF in this image. In the final image I focus blended 2 images to get more DoF. It got me the opportunity to test drive PSCS4 new focus blending feature which totally failed. I had to do it by hand.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 03:55:30 am by Dustbak »
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yaya

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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2008, 03:56:55 am »

I think that there are good reasons why many people use view cameras with symmetrical/ straight lenses, especially when shooting an object that needs to be visualised accurately.

Many software-based geometrical correction tools tend to create issues with perspective and the positioning of the objects in the frame.

The only one I've seen that has the least amount of errors is Acolens by Nurizon.

Yair
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Dustbak

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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2008, 03:58:04 am »

The image below this one is a 100% crop of the same area as the one above but processed through Flexcolor (with DAC).
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Dustbak

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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2008, 04:00:06 am »

Quote from: yaya
I think that there are good reasons why many people use view cameras with symmetrical/ straight lenses, especially when shooting an object that needs to be visualised accurately.

Many software-based geometrical correction tools tend to create issues with perspective and the positioning of the objects in the frame.

The only one I've seen that has the least amount of errors is Acolens by Nurizon.

Yair


Sure, unfortunately you are not always in the position to use one. In that case good working corrections can be a life saver. The corrections supplied by Hasselblad work very well. It is very hard to match that in PS.
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2008, 07:48:44 am »

Quote from: yaya
I think that there are good reasons why many people use view cameras with symmetrical/ straight lenses, especially when shooting an object that needs to be visualised accurately.

Many software-based geometrical correction tools tend to create issues with perspective and the positioning of the objects in the frame.

The only one I've seen that has the least amount of errors is Acolens by Nurizon.

Yair

Please note out corrections are based on the data from the Lens design software so therefore extremely accurate.

Also our corrections use the meta data from the lens including aperture AND distance - without which would reduce the accuracy of the correction.  No other software, including acolens has access to this essential data.

Phocus has more than 57,000 lens tables... and increasing.

Don't forget we also offer the HTS enabling tilt and shift on the H cameras also with corrections.

Best,



David


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Dustbak

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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2008, 09:22:58 am »

I want one and I want it yesterday. I run into problems of having too litle DoF very often and I don't want to win a couple of mm by going from f11-16 to f21.

Which does make me wonder how much extra DoF will the 8degr. of the HTS give me under several different circumstances? Will it be enough to prevent me from buying something like a P3 or a Linhof (ouch, I can feel the pain in my wallet already)?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 09:23:20 am by Dustbak »
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thsinar

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2008, 09:38:35 am »

Dustback,

8° is a lot when using the current sensors' format. You will need much less tilt/swing for the same plane of sharpness when reducing the size of the capture medium, respectively the distance lens to image plane. How much extra DoF is not really an easy question to answer when not knowing the subject extension in the 3 dimensions, the height, width and depth of the subject and the shooting distance/focal length.

The same optical rules apply here for digital as they apply for analog: set your plane of sharpness in a way that the smallest extension of this subject becomes your desired depth of field: the depth of field always extends in 90° from the sharpness plane. Once you have set your sharpness plane with the smallest extension of the subject as your depth of field, this will assure that you will be able to stop down the minimum possible to achieve sharpness. Which does not mean that it will be enough, that your lens will stop down that much, neither that you will not reach the limit of diffraction.

I hope that makes sense.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Dustbak
I want one and I want it yesterday. I run into problems of having too litle DoF very often and I don't want to win a couple of mm by going from f11-16 to f21.

Which does make me wonder how much extra DoF will the 8degr. of the HTS give me under several different circumstances? Will it be enough to prevent me from buying something like a P3 or a Linhof (ouch, I can feel the pain in my wallet already)?
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yaya

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2008, 10:02:38 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Please note out corrections are based on the data from the Lens design software so therefore extremely accurate.

Also our corrections use the meta data from the lens including aperture AND distance - without which would reduce the accuracy of the correction.  No other software, including acolens has access to this essential data.

Phocus has more than 57,000 lens tables... and increasing.

Don't forget we also offer the HTS enabling tilt and shift on the H cameras also with corrections.

Best,



David

David will you have test samples to support all this? I think that it would be useful for the folks here if you could demonstrate the differences (if any) between the HTS coupled with let's say the HC 80mm alongside a 6X9 view camera using the same digital back and an equivalent Schneider/ Rodenstock LF lens, in a simple table top setup.

I'll be mostly interested in the geometrical corrections and how they affect the positioning of the objects in the frame, their dimensions and the actual cropping that results from that.

Yair
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