Leica s2

[Carsten W]

Well, that's the minimum requirement in developement for the central shutter as far as I know, the focal plane shutter is just an ordinary Seiko-shutter also used in previous Leicas or Nikon (and Canon, too? Seiko adapts the shutters of course to the different requirements based on modules).

I am not sure that leaf shutters and MF focal plane shutters should be compared directly to Nikon shutters. They are much larger, bringing more stress. What is the MTBF for Hasselblad and Mamiya shutters?

[KevinA]

I could not agree more with your fear but... The S2 is not a clear alternative for a MF system, it is a potential compromise for some users who do not often or ever shoot with technical or view cameras and who are therefore using one of the SLR style bodies such as the Phamiya, which IMHO is far too unrefined for the backs it serves.

If users are going to give up a few pixels and a few body options in order to get the smaller, neater, more refined S2 with its clever per-lens calibration systems, they will absolutely have to get DSLR quality AF (by which I mean Nikon not Canon) and an ISO performance that closely tracks a 5DII on a per pixel basis. No AA filter will mean that many people might have tolerance for a small shortfall in either of these areas but then again, you won't be able to just  wake up one morning and say 'ooh, I think I'll pick up a fast long zoom at the store today'...

I really want the S2 to work. It is a brilliant and brave idea. Further, I wouldn't let the fact that the chips are stacked against it worry me too much: I had one of the first M8s and saw very many early 'aggressive non-adopters' eventually fall for its charms because in truth it's an excellent and unique product and Leica got it about right, despite the early brickbats!

Tim

True I do on occasions need high iso and I have a few times needed fps speed, I only need AF because the lenses are so difficult to focus manually. What every picture I do take needs is sharp, sharp in the middle and decent in the corners. When I get that then maybe I'll start wanting the luxury of high iso and DSLR bells and whistles, right now I'll settle for sharp.
I hope the S2 does that and in the near future business gets back to normal so I can lay the cash down for it.

Kevin.

[rainer_v]

unfortunately i foresee the end of leica. the s2 might be the last lung dart for this formerly great company. i cant imagine that this s2 story will have a good end.
for me its a pity, because i shot many years with leica gear and really loved their cams, at least the m line but also the r. but that was in the film days. their digital cameras never brought me on land again ,- and i think the s2 is in many ways beside the market. we will see and i hope i am wrong, but the whole story does not make sense to me, and less if i think to the features of the camera. it might be a nice dream that the focus will compete with a nikon or the iso with a canon and even if it would do i couldnt see the market for the camera. beside the extreme costs to develope a new platform and to update it in the future, how they will get these money back? how many customers will they need? i cant imagine it as i see todays market.

[Christopher]

unfortunately i foresee the end of leica. the s2 might be the last lung dart for this formerly great company. i cant imagine that this s2 story will have a good end.
for me its a pity, because i shot many years with leica gear and really loved their cams, at least the m line but also the r. but that was in the film days. their digital cameras never brought me on land again ,- and i think the s2 is in many ways beside the market. we will see and i hope i am wrong, but the whole story does not make sense to me, and less if i think to the features of the camera. it might be a nice dream that the focus will compete with a nikon or the iso with a canon and even if it would do i couldnt see the market for the camera. beside the extreme costs to develope a new platform and to update it in the future, how they will get these money back? how many customers will they need? i cant imagine it as i see todays market.

Leica should have just pressed harder to be just a lens maker. Find good deals, with Canon, Nikon or even Phase One to just make good lenses and they would be doing fine today, but no they really think they can bring the S2 and make it better than the competition. What a joke. The S1 did not work out and the same will happen with the S2. Just wait until all of you realize that Leica wants 25-35k for the camera and 2-3 lenses ...........

[eronald]

I agree: Zeiss has reinvented itself nicely as a high-end third party lens maker, and as a lens brand label for japanese cameras.

The S2 is hobbled by a slow sensor, too slow for an SLR which is intended to be on the move, with a bigger sensor that needs at least F5.6 for depth of field.  If Leica did a deal with Canon or Nikon and put in a fast sensor and multi-point AF, then their camera would be OK.

Edmund

[georgl]

- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR

- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.

- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.

The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.

I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.

Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.

[rainer_v]

- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR

- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.

- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.

The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.

I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.

Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.

do you work for leica?

[rethmeier]

Rainer,
there are lot's of dentist,financial guys and lawyers that can't wait to put in their order.
That's really how Leica survived.
Lots of collectors as well.

Anyway, I wish them(Leica) luck.

Best,

Willem.

[rethmeier]

And I'm sure Michael Reichmann will buy one too!

Best,

Willem.

[tashley]

Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.

I had immediate and very extensive experience of this. I had one of the first M8s and pretty quickly produced a series of pictures of Venice with it which Leica then linked to from all their M8 website product pages in all languages. Those pictures showed that  far from being blighted by IR issues etc, the camera was very nice indeed and in particular had glass that was not only sharp but lovely.

Over the eighteen months that followed that I fielded hundreds of emails from people who were doubtful or questioning and large numbers of them went on to purchase M8s precisely because they had access to a photographer who did not work for Leica and was clearly not in Leica's pocket. Also, during that time I identified and discussed some serious issues around focus shift of some key Leica lenses on the M8 but I nonetheless continued to use and recommend the camera. In fact the series of pictures, at http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p834013227/h18d650ad#h18d650ad is still generating emails and purchasers today.

So what you say is true. The internet very quickly gives doubters and newcomers access to high quality, independent information and when they have that, if the product is good, they reach for their wallets.

Tim

[Nemo]

Interesting comparison of sizes: Leica S2 versus Nikon D3x and Mamiya 645AF

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/05/leica-...-and.html#links

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBL...eb-BBB_0351.jpg
.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBL...eb-BBB_0363.jpg
.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBM...eb-BBB_0354.jpg
.

[woof75]

- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR

- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.

- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.

The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.

I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.

Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.

I sure do hope your right, I'm very excited about this camera. I think Leica should get a pat on the back for reaching for the absolute best that can be produced. It's great that canon can make a good everyman camera that will "do the job" but surely there's room for cameras like that and also cameras that reach for the limit. And it's not just doctors that can afford them, I'm a working professional and I'm very interested in the system. Don't forget in the London, New York and Paris markets there are still people making a lot of money, less than they used to but a bit less than a LOT is still quite a lot.

[Nemo]

The Leica S2 "almost final" version has been presented in New York, July 14th, Fotocare:

http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/cont...7d4ff2bceb?pn=1

.

[snickgrr]

Lots and lots of maybes. I just don't understand marketing in this style. Imagine walking into a Lexus showroom, and a new model is unveiled, and you ask the price, and they say, "We'll get back to you on that. Call us in a month". By the time that month rolls around, you've seen something else that's shiny, and you move on. I just don't get it. But nothing in that Leica hype mentality makes common sense. They sell them as "fashion/status accessories", not as cameras, to be used to make actual photographs.

No, not when it's on the showroom floor but lots of car manufacturers don't announce pricing until right before it does hit the floor.  Audi spent a couple years trotting the R8 around to shows here and there before it was released. And for two years the Audi forum was a buzz over the pricing.  Everyone had an opinion on it.  People put down deposits on the car without knowing anything about the pricing.  That's the way it works in the Car industry.  Pricing is set at the last moment.

[georgl]

Leica is in a special situation, they had the chance to create an entirely new system (because they needed new AF-lenses anyway) and they did. But because this  system has no direct predecessor which could be affected by the presentation of a successor they decided to present it during prototype status. That's not very common, but gave customers the chance to keep an eye on Leicas development and getting used to the new concept while also giving the impression of presenting an unfinished product.

The M8 and the DMR are very special systems, which are not manufactured or developed by Leica in the digital department (the DMR was made by Imacon, they now make the backs for Hasselblad and the digital part of the M8 is made by Jenoptik, they make the Sinar backs) and had to fight certain technical restricitions. They use the same components as MF-backs, so they are slow but also offer extremly high IQ (with smaller files of course). But for both solutions, technology simply wasn't ready - not because of incompetence or cost cuttings (well, as we know today, Mr. Lee pushed the M8 a few weeks early which caused banding - he was fired one year ago) but customers wanted these solutions, anyway.

The S2 is the first "real" digital camera by Leica since the S1 which was a fabulous camera, although too early for the market. It's now a question of price and design maturity- but the technical aspects have simply no match.

[heinrichvoelkel]

Here's a snapshot from my iPhone showing the AF-ON button (to the right of eyepiece) :

[attachment=15398:S2_AF_ON.jpg]

sorry guys, this focus button looks so frankencamera to me...did they put it there, because thats where they found some space left over...

They build a camera from ground up and forgot this really important button, important if you're into AF...man, I'm not so sure anymore...would buy 2 M9 fullframe to replace my aging Mamiya 7 in an instant...but I guess I pass on this one

[bcooter]

No, not when it's on the showroom floor but lots of car manufacturers don't announce pricing until right before it does hit the floor.  Audi spent a couple years trotting the R8 around to shows here and there before it was released. And for two years the Audi forum was a buzz over the pricing.  Everyone had an opinion on it.  People put down deposits on the car without knowing anything about the pricing.  That's the way it works in the Car industry.  Pricing is set at the last moment.

The only reason anybody compares these little cameras to cars is the cost . . . and the depreciation once you break the seal on the box.

The Leica is like a Porsche SUV.  It's cute, played well when people wanted to impress but a working day in day out camera?  Who knows because from everything that's been posted there is no information on costs, real iso, real images, software, tethering, repair services, tech support and the list goes on.

Right now there only three of these things floating around all being shown to people who have time to sit in a dealership and listen to the sales talk.  If it turns out this is a great camera, does something we can't do at the moment then good, but if it is just a 2006 SUV with 500 hp then I'm not so sure, at least for the working photographer.

Right now, with consumer attitude the way it is, nobody believes anymore and I'm not talking specialty cameras, I'm talking everything we are asked to buy.  We've all been stung, we've all believed the dealer hype and the pdf's but until this thing, or any camera is proven, is working, is making images and hopefully helping the professional photographer turn a profit, it's just another show car.

BC

[paulmoorestudio]

do you work for leica?

does that matter?
I wonder if you are inferring that working for a manufacture taints your perspective and your comments should be ignored?
What if he worked with leica to develop this camera.. should we just blow him off as biased?  Lots of folks here have connections
to the equipment being discussed..their statements must be truly suspect...I think not.

[arashm]

quoted from the PDN article
"Though pricing has still not been set, some Leica observers expect the S2 to sell for approximately $20,000. "

I certainly hope not, I'm all for this S2, but the long delay and botched marketing is too much...
and now if they think they are actually going to sell to people like me for that price... no way, honestly I rather just pick up a used H3D-31 for half that if not less.
Then again this is just ME!
crazy
am

[dfarkas]

quoted from the PDN article
"Though pricing has still not been set, some Leica observers expect the S2 to sell for approximately $20,000. "

I certainly hope not, I'm all for this S2, but the long delay and botched marketing is too much...
and now if they think they are actually going to sell to people like me for that price... no way, honestly I rather just pick up a used H3D-31 for half that if not less.
Then again this is just ME!
crazy
am

A P40+ back (no camera) is $20K. Same size sensor with same MP (within 7%).  An H3DII-39 is $22K. A new H3DII-31 is $18K.

Why shouldn't the S2 be worth $20K? Especially considering the advantages of the S2:

• weather sealing
• 35mm size, weight and handling
• speed
• leaf shutter and focal plane shutter
• vertical grip (with extra battery)
• dual card slots
• clear, bright and large hi-res LCD
• DNG RAW format, not proprietary
• superior lenses that require no s/w correction and offer faster max apertures

I'm not sure how Leica has "botched" the marketing. They showed 20 working prototypes at Photokina the day after they announced the camera to the world. The S2 is/was promised for September 2009 and will ship in September 2009, so no delay here.  Leica has held back pricing so that they could be competitive at launch time. Imagine if they had announced "competitive" pricing a year ago, when the H3DII-39 was selling for $34K.  

Don't worry. Official pricing is just a week or two away and samples will be shown before the camera hits shelves in two months.

David