Leica s2

[John_Black]

I don't understand why somebody---Nikon, Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, etc.--- has not bought that company. The quality of its conversions are first rate compared to ACR and Lightroom, and its sharpening tools are way better. Even Adobe, although there the problem is that the people who would have to recommend it would have to implicitly acknowledge they are not doing such a good job and they need to acquire this tiny little company down in Texas run by one guy.

Are they in Texas?  Totally off topic, but I'm curious   Their contact info is sparse and their hours of operation are "Our business hours are from 9:00AM to 5:00PM Monday through Friday (except holidays), US Pacific Time."  I assumed California or elsewhere.  I've emailed a couple suggestions during the past year, and it definitely does seem like a 1-person effort.

Their conversions are excellent for those who are inclined to optimize settings work individual images.  If C1 spits out something I don't like, then I use RAW Developer.  RAW Developer is missing the front end for previewing images efficiently, deleting the dogs, grouping keepers in sub folders, etc.  The thumbnails are unprocessed and look completely out of whack for the Mamiya ZD.

I like its processing engine, but they really do need somebody to rewrite the GUI and improve its overall workflow & file management.  Don't get me wrong, I like RAW Developer and use it.  But if Leica used RD in its current state without a sexier, more robust GUI, then I think most people would be very turned off by it.  And, it's Mac only.

BTW - they just updated to version 1.8.4.  For those who are interested, a demo version is available.  

[ThierryH]

Dear Howard,

The Sinar DNG files produced by Sinar eXposure can be processed in C1, since the beginning.

Best regards,
Thierry

Why? For the same reason they have left out ..., ... and Sinar raw files. They don't want to do anything that would help direct competitors to their digital backs. I can (almost) guarantee it. Of course, if I am wrong, the Capture Integration team can jump in here.

[ThierryH]

Absolutely true, David.

Thierry

One, this fact has been debated ad naseum. Many BDs claim to be 16-bit, but are actually 14-bit. Two, If the sensors are only capable of using 12-14 bits of data due to a 12-stop DR, will there be a tangible and visible difference in IQ or file plasticity? Again, we will see.
David

[bcooter]

I clicked the Visit my Website link at the bottom of your excellent post. Is that REALLY you?

;-)

Uh . . . no.

The point I'm trying to make is, these 10% upgrades of cameras, lenses, lcd's just don't cut it anymore, not for prices that come in at BMW 7 series stickers and usability that is stuck in 2001.

We've all been ten percented to death with digital  and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.

They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.

I really do wonder who Leica talked to before they invested millions in this camera, because I don't know a single professional that is just jumping up and down hoping for 30 mpx, and 1.5 fps, regardless of the format.

It's like Leica, F+H and a lot of these specialty still cameras took the way back machine and ended up in a period of time where everyone drove a chevrolet and the nuclear family ate dinner at the kitchen table.

I don't get it.  As artists we're suppose to be visionaries and give people what they "will" want, not what they currently have, but there seems to be this huge group of photographers that are bound by some strange tradition that probably never really was that traditional in the first place.

One of our assistants said yesterday, I hate to see stills die out because I've invested my career shooting stills.  I kind of stopped on that one because his "career" is 19 months at this point.

It's all changed, hell the job I'm in production with now, wants real time still and motion images out to bloggers on the day, (and this is an international client), because a handful of bloggers will reach their intended market with two million viewers and do it within hours, vs. traditional print that takes a month of pre production, two weeks of press to delivery for a thousand times more cost.

The world of advertising and editorial is in a world of hurt and confusion and the smart corporations, ad agencies and image makers are learning fast how to capitalize on free media and today the web is almost free.  The people that recognize this will move forward, the ones that don't will be selling their profoto 7's for lunch money.

It's all gonna change because anything popular eventually costs more and more.  Who woulda thought that people would actually pay for water, or $69 a month to watch teevee, or $75 Levis would be cheap?  So bottom line is soon if your gonna read your favorite magazine or watch a video on your laptop, it's gonna cost you and the advertisers something and in the end probably more than it did in the newstand days, but until everything becomes I-tunes and a $1.99 download, today it's free and that's where mass media is going.

Companies are smart and I heard a thing on NPR yesterday that said a large multinational company was looking for executives, but only apply if you have a minimum of something like 20,000 twitter hits and actively blog.

BC

[sdai]

Many BDs claim to be 16-bit, but are actually 14-bit. Two, If the sensors are only capable of using 12-14 bits of data due to a 12-stop DR, will there be a tangible and visible difference in IQ or file plasticity? Again, we will see.

You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing.

But since people always compare the S2 to the current flock of MFDBs, it's worth to point out the differences.

My point is, the bar has been raised. The S2's spec has been leapfrogged even before it starts shipping, and it's likely going to be leapfrogged many times before its upgrade program sees daylight.

If Leica wants to match the S2's price with MFDBs, they also need to match its spec and performance.

[feppe]

The point I'm trying to make is, these 10% upgrades of cameras, lenses, lcd's just don't cut it anymore, not for prices that come in at BMW 7 series stickers and usability that is stuck in 2001.

That's how it's been with cameras, computers and most entertainment peripherals for years: get the product out soon, and tweak each iteration with minor improvements.

I suspect the main reason for this is the massive financial risk of actually producing and shipping a "complete" product. It is much more prudent to release a workable product and see if it sells - if it does, start improving.

[lisa_r]

It's pretty funny to read this:

"We've all been ten percented to death with digital and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.

They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.

I also know that the people that sell "traditional" still cameras haven't talked to any professional photographer's clients, because they could care less if it's a Leica, a Blad or a Nikon."

Immediately followed by this:

"You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing..."

To me it's funny - the amount of time spent sweating details which are irrelevant to the client, and which can not be seen either in print or on the web - as long as you have a properly exposed image. I know someone is going to come now and say that I am full of it, but I know I'm not ;-) I know my cliens (some pretty big ones in NYC) don't know or care what the camera is. Their relationship is with the monitor which I am tethered to, not the camera. And when you can look at German Vogue or whatever and see a story which was shot with both a 40mp Phase and a Canon interchangably, and not tell which image was shot with which, well, you get my point. And I would bet money that the client that day had no clue that the two cameras used had much different mp ratings, nor would they have cared much.

Anyway, looks like soon you'll be able to add a $60K Leica kit to the mix - which again will look the same as the rest at almost any print size. Only it'll cost ya more than the Canon and the Phase put together.

Of course you can't listen to me, I've been shooting with a cell phone camera these days...

[TMARK]

It's pretty funny to read this:

"We've all been ten percented to death with digital and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.

They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.

I also know that the people that sell "traditional" still cameras haven't talked to any professional photographer's clients, because they could care less if it's a Leica, a Blad or a Nikon."

Immediately followed by this:

"You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing..."

I thought the same thing, not just this post but many others.  There will be an exchange of big picture ideas followed by stultifying minutia. Shocking, almost.

[markowich]

the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter

You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing.

But since people always compare the S2 to the current flock of MFDBs, it's worth to point out the differences.

My point is, the bar has been raised. The S2's spec has been leapfrogged even before it starts shipping, and it's likely going to be leapfrogged many times before its upgrade program sees daylight.

If Leica wants to match the S2's price with MFDBs, they also need to match its spec and performance.

[gwhitf]

the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter

It's all about timing.

It would be like GM reintroducing The Hummer right now, but in a V12 engine, and twenty feet long, and four miles a gallon, in a time where the Toyota Prius is the envy of everyone on the block.

It's not that it's Leica's fault really, I'm sure they're kind and talented people. But in these times of depreciating MacMansions and unwanted giant SUV's, my fear is that the S2 was about two years late to come to market. If they were really smart, they'd price it like a Prius and not like a Hummer, and just cross their fingers that they could hold on til the world turns around.

[cjmonty]

I thought the same thing, not just this post but many others.  There will be an exchange of big picture ideas followed by stultifying minutia. Shocking, almost.

Oh come on, be nice- didn't your mother tell you it takes all kinds?

As for the DSLR vs MFDB issue and whether or not your clients are paying attention, I'd say that is not very interesting concern.  The "fancy-fashion photog needing a sprawling Hasselblad kit" myth is pretty much kaput.  If a kid does it better than you with his cybershot, and that kid is lucky, that kid will probably soon have your work.  

People use what works for them, value is a subjective calculus.  I'd bet there are plenty of collectors on this website who dont even use the cameras they pay precious money to buy.  Maybe a little fetishistic, and rather funny thing to do, but everyone is free to work with these cameras and resulting pixel goo as they see fit.

[paulmoorestudio]

reading all this pontification for some obtuse reason just makes the S2 even more desirable..I guess you all are just pushing my
contrarian buttons.. as good as the nikon or canon files must be, there is no passion there for me..yes I know I am supposed to be a bean counter as well as  a creative, and maybe I would have done better financially had I gone a more pedestrian equipment route..but day in and day out of shooting stuff and promoting consumption of stuff people are just land-filling with, well, it made me desire equipment which has some lasting quality and is inspiring to me..in the process.. So, I take back what I said about being an idiot to buy an S2 if you are working small outputs.. I am in-favor and would respect anyone owning   a camera which they feel a connection to..something to help keep the small spark of passion in your work even though you are being asked to reshoot a setup for the 3rd time because the client changed their mind.  At that point it isn't about money but the creative process and so many things in a commercial shoot are anti creative that the trivial matter of holding, viewing and releasing the shutter is all we have left to gleam some pleasure from, the part of the process that is still our private moment with the subject..it approaches sacred...
when I shot large format and would be behind the ground glass of my p2's I enjoyed every turn of the focus knob or shift knob..and the same can be said of my broncolor strobes..I could have stuck with my normans I started out with.. light is light, but they give back to me on each and every pop. I have had some pleasure from my rollei cameras and lenses as well as the hassy backs but they have been a pain.. crappy masks in the viewfinder, a monorail bench camera with no zero detents, sleeping backs and missed shots..
So bean counting aside, this new camera is desirable, I for one am embracing my desire to have one, it is not about the client or what they need, it is all about what I want and how I want to work and create.. maybe I wont be able to swing the beans to buy the system, I will be only envious of those who do.

[ziocan]

It's all about timing.

It would be like GM reintroducing The Hummer right now, but in a V12 engine, and twenty feet long, and four miles a gallon, in a time where the Toyota Prius is the envy of everyone on the block.

It's not that it's Leica's fault really, I'm sure they're kind and talented people. But in these times of depreciating MacMansions and unwanted giant SUV's, my fear is that the S2 was about two years late to come to market. If they were really smart, they'd price it like a Prius and not like a Hummer, and just cross their fingers that they could hold on til the world turns around.

If you are referring to a block in Detroit where all the car manufacturers reside, yes the Prius is the envy of the "tired" american carmakers. But if we are referring to a block where people live, I doubt a Prius is anyone envy.

I'm not going to buy any Leica S2 personally, but after handling it once for 10 minutes, it gave me the impression it was on another league compared to the hasseblad and not to mention my Mamiya.
It handles compared to current MF bodies, more or less as a new Nikon DSLR handles compared to an FM2 circa 1982. And I bet image quality will be fine as well.
IMO there will be plenty of takers.

I'm pretty sure, also on this forum, there are photographers who on the last few years lost on resale value on their cars, enough to buy one or 2 of these S2 bodies (about 20 grands at least). even if you just bought a "small" 3 series BMW or a small SUV in 2006, that is about what you would have lost in 3 years. If you bought a series 6 or a Range you would have lost 40 grands. I wonder if they are thinking about it or writing multiple post on the BMW boards.

[tashley]

reading all this pontification for some obtuse reason just makes the S2 even more desirable..I guess you all are just pushing my
contrarian buttons.. as good as the nikon or canon files must be, there is no passion there for me..yes I know I am supposed to be a bean counter as well as  a creative, and maybe I would have done better financially had I gone a more pedestrian equipment route..but day in and day out of shooting stuff and promoting consumption of stuff people are just land-filling with, well, it made me desire equipment which has some lasting quality and is inspiring to me..in the process.. So, I take back what I said about being an idiot to buy an S2 if you are working small outputs.. I am in-favor and would respect anyone owning   a camera which they feel a connection to..something to help keep the small spark of passion in your work even though you are being asked to reshoot a setup for the 3rd time because the client changed their mind.  At that point it isn't about money but the creative process and so many things in a commercial shoot are anti creative that the trivial matter of holding, viewing and releasing the shutter is all we have left to gleam some pleasure from, the part of the process that is still our private moment with the subject..it approaches sacred...
when I shot large format and would be behind the ground glass of my p2's I enjoyed every turn of the focus knob or shift knob..and the same can be said of my broncolor strobes..I could have stuck with my normans I started out with.. light is light, but they give back to me on each and every pop. I have had some pleasure from my rollei cameras and lenses as well as the hassy backs but they have been a pain.. crappy masks in the viewfinder, a monorail bench camera with no zero detents, sleeping backs and missed shots..
So bean counting aside, this new camera is desirable, I for one am embracing my desire to have one, it is not about the client or what they need, it is all about what I want and how I want to work and create.. maybe I wont be able to swing the beans to buy the system, I will be only envious of those who do.

Paul, you've put your finger on some stuff I wasn't able to define there.

I invested in a P45+ with Phamiya, several lenses and a Cambo technical camera with glass too this past year and it hasn't for a moment given me that feeling you refer to. There are moments at the monitor when I go Wow, where I see that those kinds of results could never come from any of the current crop of DSLRs, and there are quiet moments when the precision of the Cambo mounted on an Arca Cube touches my artisanal gland. But by and large the gear is annoying, clunky, impersonal but quirky. Heck, I've had more fun in the past week with an EP-1 than in several months of MFDB.

So yes, if the beans, when counted, add up to an S2 and if the S2 somehow subliminally touches the right button whilst providing the right quality of results 'above the liminal line then I'll have one.

BTW I really like your personal portfolio a lot. IMHO it really shows what happens when people do what they want to do rather than what they think will impress the crowd.

Tim

[gwhitf]

I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.

[ziocan]

We all know that if the images are stunning because of the content, it is what matter the most to us and our clients. But the "most" is not the whole story.

I'm pretty sure if all these camera would cost 3000$ each and not a penny more, nobody would say that there is not difference worth bothering across different formats.
But reality is different and you get what you pay for, therefore there is a price difference.

this thread is really funny.
there are the guys who do not want to justify the extra cost, therefore they say they cannot see (or bother with) the the difference and of course their clients even less so.
then there are the guys that may justify the costs difference and they do not have problem to see and appreciate a difference in quality and their clients apparently as well.

Even if my sight is not as good as it used to be, I can still spot a Canon shot next to a DB shot across the magazines pages. Even if I may not justify the 40 grands necessary for a S2 system or a 50mp DB, I do not have hard time admitting that more is more and some people like and want more.

I'm pretty sure the S2, because of its capabilities and features, would make a difference on many shooting conditions, relative to both the DSLR and the larger mp MF backs.

[Carsten W]

I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.

I don't know if I could in this since I am no pro, but I absolutely do feel a strong connection to my equipment, every time I pick up the Leica M8 or the Contax 645/Sinar eMotion 54 LV. There is something very satisfying about holding them, setting them up, pressing the shutter. The Leica M8 is another step above the Contax, better integrated, better materials, better build quality, and I imagine that the Leica S2 will also be.

I am glad to hear people finding reasons to like Leica. I am sooooo tired of being perceived as a religious fanatic every time someone opens their mouth about Leica. The cameras are wonderful to use, and give wonderful results. There is absolutely no reason to be blinded to buy a Leica. The Leica M8 also has a very strong trend of first-time ownership, so all the talk about the Leica faithful is also ill-conceived and completely besides the point.

However, I also understand anyone who has reservations about this camera, because as good as it looks on paper, service for pros, the reality of the camera and its construction, and well as software for developing the raws, are all very real concerns. I personally believe that Leica will pull it off and that the system will be viable for them quite quickly, but of course not everyone is so optimistic.

[tashley]

I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.

Well you know one now! I feel strongly connected to my M8 and its lenses, have felt somewhat intrigued to my Pen and even get moments where my 5DII has some form of personality. My Phase/Mamiya 645D really is just dead metal and plastic.

[feppe]

I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.

Oh please don't go on

I went for digital kicking and screaming three years back - in retrospect not entirely sure why. I'm no Luddite by any stretch, and enjoy gadgets. But my recent LL forum threads about the lack of sharpness of the Canon 24-105mm f/4L, and my on-going seven month saga to get a shipment on a 5D MkII I paid for in January have just exacerbated my (perhaps irrational) longing for going back to (MF) film.

A major part of this has to do with the fact that none of the cameras today are "complete" - they all lack some fundamental feature or are priced way out of reach of serious amateurs like myself. This means the 10% incremental improvement per generation are "necessary" for many photographers. From specs I'm hoping the 5D MkII to be the closest compromise, but I'm afraid the poor AF will be the feature which will make me upgrade the MkIII in three years. I'm aware lack of accurate AF on digital doesn't compute with me being perfectly fine with manual focus on MF film, but I already conceded being irrational on the subject .

According to my Lightroom catalogue only 0.5% of my (scanned) shots are with Mamiya C220, 2% 35mm film, rest digital, yet five of my top 10 shots are with film instead of digital - 3 of them MF. It appears it's not the volume which counts, at least for me. Even then I'm quite format-agnostic when shooting: I don't get some special kicks from using film compared to digital. Well, perhaps with the C220 I do.

Therefore I'm currently expanding my MF lens selection, and even thought about upgrading to LF film.

Three digital cameras do raise some serious interest in me, though, but they all have a major shortcoming which turns them into unattractive alternatives to MF film: Leica S2 (price), Sigma DP2 (non-interchangeable lens) and Olympus E-P1 (it's not ready, yet).

[markowich]

Well you know one now! I feel strongly connected to my M8 and its lenses, have felt somewhat intrigued to my Pen and even get moments where my 5DII has some form of personality. My Phase/Mamiya 645D really is just dead metal and plastic.

i understand fully what you are saying. it was really fun to USE the m8, very nice experience. it was often less fun to see the files with color shifts, weird white balance, lousy medium-high iso performance, focus inaccuracies (for the 50mm-90mm lenses, my fault...),viewfinder inaccuracies, moiree patterns and finally the shutter failure on a laos trip. fortunately i had the D3 as a backup. was i bonded to the m8? yes, but its defects were a great remedy.
peter