Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Hasselblad at Photokina  (Read 58128 times)

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2008, 10:33:15 am »

Quote
This is simply inaccurate. The bodies (including the Fuji GX) are made in Sweden. Fuji do make the lenses (but not the shutters).

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225982\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.

Michael
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 10:33:27 am by michael »
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2008, 10:34:46 am »

Quote
Are you confirming the Nikon MX rumour, Michael? Hope you're not busting any NDA agreement
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not under any NDA with Nikon at this time, but the coming of the MX format from Nikon is not much of a secret within the industry.

Michael
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 10:35:02 am by michael »
Logged

woof75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 581
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2008, 10:37:00 am »

Quote from: paulmoorestudio,Oct 1 2008, 02:10 PM
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.

That's the point that I was making.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from?  let the free market decide.
 

when and if someone comes up with a competitive model there will be room in the market for them.
The sad truth is that unlike the corporate world, photographers find it much more difficult to pass on the R&D and profit margins of the equipment makers and resellers to the clients.. and the fact of the matter is that a file from a 5d2 will get you the same fee as with a hy6 .. the clients really don't care..and are not going to offer up any compensation for the bigger file.. photographers have been eating it..and while we are suckers for quality, those still in business are not stupid and can't afford the continued pursuit of the mp summit offered by the old school mfdb makers.
 
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!  
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

But would you get the job in the first place if the client didn't like your book, it's quite easy to see the difference between a DB and DSLR in a good 11*14 inkjet print. Not saying that a DB is better but different, for my look that I get paid to do I need a DB.
Also can someone tell me why a H3D is "better" than a Mamiya AFD 3. One of the main reason I shoot phase is because I don't like the H cameras.
Logged

woof75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 581
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2008, 10:37:51 am »

Quote from: paulmoorestudio,Oct 1 2008, 02:10 PM
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.

That's the point that I was making.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from?  let the free market decide.
 

when and if someone comes up with a competitive model there will be room in the market for them.
The sad truth is that unlike the corporate world, photographers find it much more difficult to pass on the R&D and profit margins of the equipment makers and resellers to the clients.. and the fact of the matter is that a file from a 5d2 will get you the same fee as with a hy6 .. the clients really don't care..and are not going to offer up any compensation for the bigger file.. photographers have been eating it..and while we are suckers for quality, those still in business are not stupid and can't afford the continued pursuit of the mp summit offered by the old school mfdb makers.
 
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!  
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]


SORRY DOUBLE POST
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 10:38:17 am by woof75 »
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2008, 10:39:11 am »

was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from?  let the free market decide.

Yes – actually I think it was. I miss Ansco, Ilford, 3M, Agfa and a host of others that I can't recall at the moment. Choice is good.

Michael
Logged

paulmoorestudio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 250
    • http://paulmoorestudio.com
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2008, 10:55:19 am »

Quote
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from?  let the free market decide.

Yes – actually I think it was. I miss Ansco, Ilford, 3M, Agfa and a host of others that I can't recall at the moment. Choice is good.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226049\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

comeon,
we are talking about the vast majority of the commercial market.. sure having some agfa in the freezer was cool when you wanted to do something different.. meat and potatoes commercial..
or do I have the wrong forum, this isn't the fineart, cameraclub or popphoto forum is it?
kodak and fuji more than covered it all for 99% of working pros..
but the free market will and does allow choice..remember the hosemaster..live by the sword die by it..
Yes I know we all miss those small auto makers of the 20's too!  Those bad guys at gm and ford drove them out of business..or maybe they just didn't have the right product for the consumer.
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2008, 11:00:53 am »

OK. Maybe you're right.

Let's just have a world with only GM and Toyota, Nikon and Canon, Fuji and Kodak, Hasselblad and Phase One.

Who needs anything else?

And, f___'em if they do!

Michael

Ps: Irony alert.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 11:01:32 am by michael »
Logged

paulmoorestudio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 250
    • http://paulmoorestudio.com
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2008, 11:04:46 am »

I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!  
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

But would you get the job in the first place if the client didn't like your book, it's quite easy to see the difference between a DB and DSLR in a good 11*14 inkjet print. Not saying that a DB is better but different, for my look that I get paid to do I need a DB.
Also can someone tell me why a H3D is "better" than a Mamiya AFD 3. One of the main reason I shoot phase is because I don't like the H cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

you put way too much confidence in most clients ability to discern an 11x14 inkjet - sure you get the diff. but does the client...have they studied photography for 15years? I don't think so.
 a crappy low megapixel camera in the hands of a good photographer is way better than a average photograher with a h3-50mp will ever be..I think we all will agree on that.
Logged

Photomangreg

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2008, 11:05:17 am »

Quote
OK. Maybe you're right.

Let's just have a world with only GM and Toyota, Nikon and Canon, Fuji and Kodak, Hasselblad and Phase One.

Who needs anything else?

And, f___'em if they do!

Michael

Ps: Irony alert.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Where will PhaseOne put their backs then???
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2008, 11:08:31 am »

Oh, come on!

How about the Phase One camera?

How about the compatible Mamiya 645 body. How about the tens of thousands of existing Mamiya's Hasselblad H1 and H2s, Rolleis, Contaxes, etc, etc.

Let's let it drop, OK?

Michael
Logged

Photomangreg

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2008, 11:12:21 am »

Quote
Oh, come on!

How about the Phase One camera?

How about the compatible Mamiya 645 body. How about the tens of thousands of existing Mamiya's Hasselblad H1 and H2s, Rolleis, Contaxes, etc, etc.

Let's let it drop, OK?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lighten up, I was humorously replying to your ironic post!
Logged

Photomangreg

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2008, 11:21:19 am »

Quote
That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can confirm that the bodies are indeed manufactured and assembled in Sweden.
Logged

Nick-T

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 462
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2008, 11:22:26 am »

Quote
That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have just double checked with a couple of Hasselblad employees on ichat and they confirm that my statement was correct.

Nick-T
Logged
[url=http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.c

BobDavid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3307
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2008, 11:46:24 am »

Quote
Michael,

 I don't think we are seeing a fire sale, just a careful assessment of changing circumstances, and a shrewd decision to take risks to be in front. One thing I've noticed is that while H were stressing the elitist/trendy aspect of the H system before - now they are increasingly stressing the actual technical performance of their cameras in their litterature, and doing demos. The message is now "This camera takes good pictures AND you can afford it".

5 years ago, MF had a high initial investment and a high marginal (per unit) cost. Now chips are reaching maturity, bodies are stabilizing, and we have an industry with high investment but tolerable marginal costs. Such industries fare better when they commoditize their products.

 The R&D on the H bodies is basically done and paid for with the H1 and H2, the AF works and keeps working, the mirror slaps and keeps on slapping, the various knobs don't corrode or fall off, the back and lens mounts are stable and above all the battery and the lens and back contacts are proven and reliable.  In fact Hasselblad say the dumber the body the happier they are. Marginal costs on making a piece of metal is not going to kill them. The same is true of the existing lenses - they are done, and probably amortized now, just raking in profits as batches get made and sold.

 Which leaves the backs. The marginal costs ie. component prices here have fallen - off the top of my head I'd say that the sensor itself is now well under $2K for the HD31. The real expense is the R&D which needs to be redone every time a new sensor is integrated. Which is why higher volumes are beneficial, to offset this initial investment ie. the R&D.

 Also, every single Hassy sold now is a potential sale of a lens - which is all profit. Now wonder Hassy wants more bodies out there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well put, Edmund. I think your analysis is right on target.
Logged

Nick-T

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 462
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2008, 12:16:39 pm »

Here's what a "fire sale" (to quote Michael) stand looks like:

http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html

Nick-T
Logged
[url=http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.c

uaiomex

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1211
    • http://www.eduardocervantes.com
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2008, 12:57:04 pm »

After reading this, I give this rumor 98% probability to be true.
Eduardo

Quote
I am not under any NDA with Nikon at this time, but the coming of the MX format from Nikon is not much of a secret within the industry.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2008, 01:15:51 pm »

Quote
After reading this, I give this rumor 98% probability to be true.
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In which case, Canon will go there too, and Fuji will finally buy out Shiro, put their own sensors in the Hassies and stop selling film to the Japanese and Korean wedding photographers

It will be left to Phase and  Sinar to do what we do best in Europe, switch off the lights of the last factory, and put the key under the mat

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:17:42 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

amsp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2008, 01:16:32 pm »

Quote
Here's what a "fire sale" (to quote Michael) stand looks like:

http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Definitely one of the best looking stands I've ever seen. And the fashion shoot setup is very decent too, unlike most other makers offering laughable wannabe models and set design. I think Hasselblad are without a question masters of marketing, with nice looking website, advertising, magazine, etc. As for the actual products, I'm not a fan personally but they are solid and I think the price reduction is a sensible and natural evolution. Like someone else here said; all products get better and usually somewhat cheaper as the market and technology matures.
Logged

Khun_K

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349
    • http://
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2008, 01:21:54 pm »

Quote
We are close to the point, if we are not already there, where clients just see digital capture as it's all good and professional.  Nobody usually mentions file sizes, or dr or anything like that.

Color, stability of software, lack of artifacts or moire can be mentioned, but I haven't had a conversation with a client about the file size or brand/make of a digital camera in a long long time.

I also think that we are close to the leveling of the brands.

When I bought my Phase backs, (for my style of work and workflow) I believe they were better than anything else and maybe in some areas still have advantage for me, (once again depending on what you shoot), but not having worked a new Hasselblad or Leaf or Sinar I can't say that one is actually better than the other, though from what I hear and read, they all seem pretty close.

The point of all this is I like the idea of buy it, learn it, use it, sell it if something better comes along, or buy the next one just because it has a different look in the file or the glass or the camera operation.

I see nothing about that sceanrio that limits medium format, in fact I think it will grow the format.

I have Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase and switch between them all the time, sometimes on the same project, sometimes because each one (and the lenses) will give me a different look.

Michael does that, so do many other photographers.  Nothing new about owning different systems, even in the same format.

Lower prices makes this easier to do.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, I think the quality of the high end digital capture is reaching to a point which level of mega pixels will allow faster and more efficient post production work, it is more on how to get the best out of the digital raw than to continue to look for extra 10-20 million pixels, although certainly there are extra benefit, but may be for a common size print AD it is no longer that visible, or we are pushing the limit to the printing industries that when we output more, they cannot print more.  
I use several systems, and all of them are very good - file quality wise.  The workflow becomes more software oriented, which system perform more robust than another.  My P45+ on Contax 645 works very stable, and my H3D39 - after Hasselblad released the new Phocus software, became easily as solid as Capture One, I shot in one assignment in a day more than 1,000 exposures and not once the software fail, which is very impressive. Sinar Hy6 and eMotion 75 is fast in real time, when tethered they are somewhat a little slower, but the file quality for beauty shot is perhaps the most pleasing skin tone and smoothness of all I have used, of course this is subjective opinion.
Me too like to grab my M8 or 1Ds MK3 in between digital backs but my only problem is that M8 only start from ISO 160 that is difficult to synchronize with the lighting set up for backs, most often at ISO 50, or 100 with Sinar.
But for all they are, certainly lower price the better, but I also believe a health operation should allow each segment of the industries to work, we expect reasonable pay from client and should also allow professional camera maker to make reasonable profit.  We are too far out of the real manufacturing and operation of the camera company to snap judgement, but if bad price war lead to failing a company, I am not so sure it is a good sign.
Logged

samuel_js

  • Guest
Hasselblad at Photokina
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2008, 01:26:40 pm »

I think I can tell where Phase One is going to put their backs:

I've been working on my options to upgrade my P20 for  a few months now.

For about a month ago I got this email from Phase One offering a P25+ for 10,200 Euros.
Today, I got an email from my dealer telling me the price to upgrade my P20 to a P25+ is 9,200 Euros.

So if some is lost and desperate here that's Phase One.

And from a customer's point of view, after a LightPhase, an H20, a P20 and a P21, here is where my love story with Phase One comes to and end.

Actually, my feelings are now much hotter than when Hasselblad closed the H2 (that I was using then).

So I better stop writing now.  

To be continued...



/Samuel
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 8   Go Up