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Author Topic: Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?  (Read 7373 times)

Mitchell Baum

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« on: September 27, 2008, 12:29:34 pm »

I'm considering the Hy6 65. I've demoed the Hy6 75LV and loved the Hy6, but want the cheaper, improved screen etc. 65 version.

Has anyone compared the image quality of the  Sinar 65, Leaf 65, P30 sensor with the larger format sensor siblings. I know the microlenses make for better high ISO, and create problems for tilt shift.

Are there any other significant differences from the non-microlensed, larger format sensors.

Thanks,

Mitchell
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klane

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 01:00:17 pm »

I actually think the leaf 65 does not have micro lenses.  I have the valeo 17 which the same sized sensor as the ones you mentioned just lower mp count, and it does NOT have micro lenses and I can pretty much go crazy with movements and see no adverse effects.
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Saša D. Karić

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2008, 01:17:50 pm »

Quote
Has anyone compared the image quality of the  Sinar 65, Leaf 65, P30 sensor with the larger format sensor siblings. I know the microlenses make for better high ISO, and create problems for tilt shift.

Are there any other significant differences from the non-microlensed, larger format sensors.

Thanks,

Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am considering Hy6 too.... I don't see in your option Hasselblad and P30+ as of today will not work on any of the Hy6 Platforms as I'm sure you know... one little thing though is that tilt shift seems to be of interest/care to you and as such I was wondering why not Hasselblad because they have very good selection of accessories including their new Tilt-Shift adapter also big benefit is that all your Tilt and Shift movements are recorded and stored in software as would your f stop, s speed, etc. (especially if you're taking/creating reference shot and profiles before hand for lens cast etc.)

OK very aggressive price too, that will definitely shake the market for sure!

Only problem I have with Hasselblad is those limited D lenses, but to me one more D lens, huge drops in prices is the sign from Hasselblad that they have/testing the new system already, probably not out for 1 or 2 years though!

If it happens sooner, I wouldn't be surprised for them to keep their current system going for as long as they want to, as a lower end product I mean until the sudden death of H system and there we go again... more wine, more wine
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 01:21:16 pm by Saša D. Karić »
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Mitchell Baum

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2008, 06:24:54 pm »

Thanks for your responses Klane and Sasa.
The Hy6 65 does have Microlenses. You can see all the specs on the Sinar website.

The Hy6 65 is priced at $17.000 + or -. Same as the Hassey 31. Having spent a little time with both, I greatly prefer the Hy6. That is just personal preference, not saying it's a better system.

Perhaps I worded my question badly. What I want to know is how the Kodak 31 meg sensor which the Sinar, Phase, and Hassey all seem to share compares to the larger format  non-microlensed sensors.

Best,

Mitchell
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rainer_v

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2008, 06:29:23 pm »

Quote
Thanks for your responses Klane and Sasa.
The Hy6 65 does have Microlenses. You can see all the specs on the Sinar website.

The Hy6 65 is priced at $17.000 + or -. Same as the Hassey 31. Having spent a little time with both, I greatly prefer the Hy6. That is just personal preference, not saying it's a better system.

Perhaps I worded my question badly. What I want to know is how the Kodak 31 meg sensor which the Sinar, Phase, and Hassey all seem to share compares to the larger format  non-microlensed sensors.

Best,

Mitchell
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i think this depends on what you do. for shift lenses i`d prefer the 33/39mp backs and among this two the 33mp dalsa sensor, both dont have microlenses. the dalsa is beahving more even in terms of color shifts than the 39 kodak, although with both one should shoot white references or lcc sdhots. microlenses ( in the 31 kodak )  in general create much more color shifts with unsymmetric light angles , as it appears with shifted lenses.
if you shoot with a "normal" mf camera the kodak 31 seems to do a pretty good job. everybody who use it seems to be very content. hi iso behavor should be better with microlenses, at least  in theory,- but... always a but... the emotion75 2.edition ( dalsa ) does a very decent job now too at iso 400 and even 800.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 06:33:03 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Mitchell Baum

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 08:40:01 am »

Thanks Rainer,

This was just the info I was looking for.

Also congratulations on your camera and award.

I sometimes think I should consider it instead of the Hy6, but have no experience with tilt/shift or view.

I shoot landscape and nature outdoors exclusively. I would use tilt shift "artistically." !:^)

I don't think I would mind the slow down in shooting. My biggest concern would be if I liked the viewfinder as much as the Hy6 WLF.

I guess the image quality with your camera and lenses would be a noticeable improvement.

Best,

Mitchell
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rainer_v

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 09:10:30 am »

Quote
Thanks Rainer,

This was just the info I was looking for.

Also congratulations on your camera and award.

I sometimes think I should consider it instead of the Hy6, but have no experience with tilt/shift or view.

I shoot landscape and nature outdoors exclusively. I would use tilt shift "artistically." !:^)

I don't think I would mind the slow down in shooting. My biggest concern would be if I liked the viewfinder as much as the Hy6 WLF.

I guess the image quality with your camera and lenses would be a noticeable improvement.

Best,

Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

its another way of working. if you dont have problem with the slower process it has many pros to work with view cameras. but of-course its a question of getting used to do it. i have problems with "normal" cameras to find the same concentration to the single motifs than i have with view cameras, where i have to decide more or less visual and before the shot where to place the camera. difficult to give an advice here. for landscape you will love the quality and probably also the much increased creative tools in form of tilt/ shift and scheimpflug.
and yes, the lenses are much better,- although no reason to complain with zeiss/schneider too.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 09:12:27 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Mitchell Baum

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 03:02:51 pm »

Thanks again Rainer. I really appreciate your advice.

I guess one of the biggest considerations for me is the viewfinder. I love the Hy6 waist level finder, and feel it might really help me see and compose images.

Perhaps the Arctec would be even better?

I live in Maine so it's a long long way to a Sinar dealer.

Best,

Mitchell
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tho_mas

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 05:06:33 pm »

Quote
I guess one of the biggest considerations for me is the viewfinder. I love the Hy6 waist level finder, and feel it might really help me see and compose images.
Perhaps the Arctec would be even better? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Compared to other view cameras I have seen (and the Cambo I have) the viewfinder (groundglass and lens) is perfect. It's really bright and clear.
Somehow hard to compare it to the finder of a SLR as you see the image on the groundglass upside down.
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Lust4Life

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 09:20:21 pm »

About 3 weeks ago I tested the Phase/Mamiya/P45+ and now I'm testing the Leaf AFi 7, which I currently have on evaluation.  Remember: Phase P45+ = 39MP
Leaf 7 = 33MP

Initial impressions with the 80mm lenses are:

Leaf is showing less noise when compared to Phase.
Leaf is showing less sharpness out of the chip but sharpens up "better" then the Phase at the finished image level.
Phase Capture One software wins hands down against Leafs - no contest.

Leaf is DRAMATICALLY sharper at all f stops with the Schneider glass than the Mamiya.  Perfect edge to edge.  Great lens in my tests compared to the Mamiya.

Leaf Auto Focus is just a tad sharper/on target - very slight but perceivable.

Still working on green channel evaluations - I "think" Leaf has the edge here from my initial experiments.
Leaf does only 32 second exposure max - Phase wins this factor hands down.
Leaf AFi fits my hand great and controls are well placed - not so for the Phase.
Neither Leaf nor Phase have the camera user profiles features that my H2 had.

Still testing, so these are my initial impressions.

Additional thoughts - Leaf priced well above Phase prices I've been offered by Phase dealers.
And both are, as of tonight, well above the new Hasselblad prices.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 09:24:40 pm by Lust4Life »
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rainer_v

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 09:29:26 pm »

you should test the spirit back/hy6 offer from sinar too i think .... similar price than hassy.
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rainer viertlböck
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bradleygibson

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 10:46:48 pm »

Quote
Initial impressions with the 80mm lenses are:

...

Leaf is showing less sharpness out of the chip but sharpens up "better" then the Phase at the finished image level.

...

Leaf is DRAMATICALLY sharper at all f stops with the Schneider glass than the Mamiya.  Perfect edge to edge.  Great lens in my tests compared to the Mamiya.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you for sharing your observations, Lust!

I'm a little confused by this--is the second comment after sharpening?

-Brad
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-Brad
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EricWHiss

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 11:35:20 pm »

Lust4Life,

Thanks for sharing your test results with us.    When you say Leaf is showing less noise than the phase - do you mean at high ISO, base ISO or all ISOs?      And did you use the leaf software and the phase software to handle the files or did you use something like lightroom that does both files the same?   When you talk about sharpness are you meaning fine detail?  After you play with the files which one shows the most fine detail? And how much of the difference is due to the difference in the lenses?  I know the rollei schneider 80mm PQS lens is fantastic.
Thanks,
Eric
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 11:36:18 pm by EricWHiss »
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Adina

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 03:41:59 am »

Quote
I'm considering the Hy6 65. I've demoed the Hy6 75LV and loved the Hy6, but want the cheaper, improved screen etc. 65 version.

Has anyone compared the image quality of the  Sinar 65, Leaf 65, P30 sensor with the larger format sensor siblings. I know the microlenses make for better high ISO, and create problems for tilt shift.

Are there any other significant differences from the non-microlensed, larger format sensors.

Thanks,

Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

statement from sinar at photokina:

... you should not use the pcs55 with the 65 pack ...
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thsinar

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2008, 04:23:09 am »

yes, obviously, it does shift the light rays, although I guess (emphasize on "guess") that upto certain degree it should be possible to compensate the resulting colour casts with the new "white shading" tool available in eXposure 6.1.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
statement from sinar at photokina:

... you should not use the pcs55 with the 65 pack ...
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Lust4Life

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2008, 06:08:00 am »

Brad,

Yes, after sharpening.  Seems the Leaf either does not force it's sharpening standards on you thus allowing you do choose as little or as much as YOU want.  I like that.

Jack

Quote
Thank you for sharing your observations, Lust!

I'm a little confused by this--is the second comment after sharpening?

-Brad
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Lust4Life

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2008, 06:52:35 am »

Eric,

OK, here goes:
First, the Given in the equation:  I want a single digital back to be adaptable between a Technical Camera and a street/everyday use camera.  I'll roam distant cities with a MFDB on a body like the Leaf AFI in mid day, then in the evening take the back off and put it on a Cambo for my landscape shot.  I want the sharpest, most detailed and balanced image possible off of both camera bodies/back combos.

Now to your questions:
All test were run at the respective backs lowest ISO as I always shoot on tripod (landscape scenes).
Thus at lowest ISO I see less noise, particularly in the red channel on the Leaf.  This is checking at the Pixel Level.  I can't say for other ISO's as I very rarely go there.

Next, I have processed all test images in two ways before reaching MY judgement:
     1.  With each respective companies OWN RAW developer - and here is where Phase blows away Leaf on tool set and controls, but the final image from the Leaf RAW file actually looked better after I took each into CS3 and finished tweaking them.
     2.  With Lightroom - thus each RAW file is process with the same tool/algorithm.

     Sharpness - here I mean both the general overall look of the image and detail in the fine areas - viewed at Pixel Level.  Leaf definitely shows far more fine detail than the Phase after sharpening - it's the glass in my judgement, not just the sensor.  This was confirmed by my testing the Phase P45+ on a Cambo.
The images are just sharper with Schneider digital glass in front of the sensor as compare to Mamiya. (I just purchased a Cambo with Schneider 35 Digitar as a results of my tests of a couple of weeks ago - should be here tomorrow - but I have yet to decide what back I'll mate it to!)   To my understanding, the Leaf/Rollie 80 lenses are the same, thus I can support your comment about Rollie 80 quality from testing the Leaf.

    In closing, I've also owned the H1 and H2 with the P45 and P45+ respectively.  The camera user definable controls (User created Presets, mirror delay, Zone System, etc.) on the H series are to my working style the best and the camera fits my hands the best with the Leaf a very close second and the Phase not acceptable.  But as I've said elsewhere, I find the Hasseblad back not having it's own power supply, thus limiting its ability to be used on a Cambo or Alpa in an elegant and simple fashing (Before someone tells me again: Yes, I know you can with the clunky adapter, another battery, Linhof sliding back, image bank, etc. BUT that's not elegant for a 62 year old chap back packing across the terrain from a weight, bulk and set up time perspective!)

     I find it fascinating that ALL of the choices we have, Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase, Sinar have compromises!  NO one company has hit it all right, from my landscape shooter perspective!  From a camera body feature set IF I ignore the desire to shoot on a Technical camera with Rodenstock/Schneider lenses (and I've tested them as well and they are better than the H-series) Hasselblad is my winner.  But I doubt that I will ignore wanting to use a Tech camera or the extra detail that I get from Rodenstock/Schneider glass since I don't have to with Leaf.  I have considered testing out the Hasselblad HTS 1.5 BUT I already know that I prefer the images from Schneider and Rodenstock more than the H lenses.

     In closing, what screws up the equations total is the price delta between Hasselblad's new price structure and Leaf/Phase/Sinar prices.  Until Leaf/Phase/Sinar get their acts in order, I'll hold off parting from my cash in todays economy!  

As photography has always been my Mistress, rather than what feeds me, the cost of the adventure truly is a serious deciding factor for me and will dictate the direction of my final decision!  

Jack

PS:  I'm taking the next 4 days to be in the field shooting to see what other than test images will be produced by the Leaf AFi 7.


Quote
Lust4Life,

Thanks for sharing your test results with us.    When you say Leaf is showing less noise than the phase - do you mean at high ISO, base ISO or all ISOs?      And did you use the leaf software and the phase software to handle the files or did you use something like lightroom that does both files the same?   When you talk about sharpness are you meaning fine detail?  After you play with the files which one shows the most fine detail? And how much of the difference is due to the difference in the lenses?  I know the rollei schneider 80mm PQS lens is fantastic.
Thanks,
Eric
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 06:58:22 am by Lust4Life »
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Lust4Life

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2008, 06:54:43 am »

Rainer,

Removing the arTec from the equation, what will Sinar get me in terms of image quality and hardware tools that Leaf will not?

Thanks,
Jack

Quote
you should test the spirit back/hy6 offer from sinar too i think .... similar price than hassy.
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thsinar

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 07:36:28 am »

Dear Jack,

If I may answer, and if you are speaking about the 65/eSprit 65:

- on-board processing with DNGs and JPGs out of the back
- highest resolution for a back display: 640x480
- bright and contrastful 3" display
- integrated back
- 3-year standard warranty

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Rainer,

Removing the arTec from the equation, what will Sinar get me in terms of image quality and hardware tools that Leaf will not?

Thanks,
Jack
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Lust4Life

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Image Quality of P30, AFI 6, Hy6 65?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2008, 12:30:59 pm »

Thierry,

As the body is basically the same between the Leaf and Sinar, price would determine that choice for me - and I do like the camera body.

But am I correct in believing the sensor is the KAF31600CE with microlenses?
Thus, for use with technical camera it is going to create a problem compared to the Dalsa w/o microlenses.

I like the items you list, just will not purchase a back with microlenses.
Please advise if I'm mis-informed.

Jack

Quote
Dear Jack,

If I may answer, and if you are speaking about the 65/eSprit 65:

- on-board processing with DNGs and JPGs out of the back
- highest resolution for a back display: 640x480
- bright and contrastful 3" display
- integrated back
- 3-year standard warranty

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 12:32:57 pm by Lust4Life »
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