Hasselblad new pricing - up to 40% off

[James R Russell]

It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too.  The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to.  But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical?  This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well.   In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do.   I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect.
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I'm not to sure about what your saying, but bottom line is this.

If you take 12 subjects of varying skin tones light translucent to warm brown and photograph them in controlled conditions in the studio, the db's will be so specific in color that the light skin tones go almost grey the warm skin tones have more life in them.

Consequenlty do this with the 1ds3 and the skin tones have more of a continuous look and more pleasing.

NOW.  I'm saying the db's are bad, in some many instances they are very, very good, but I do believe they need to work on some of thier color response and offer some more options in software for viewing and post processing.

One thing the db's do well is under tungsten light.  They have less orange cast and seem to resonate better at lower kelvin.

This is a p30 shot with tungsten.



This also doesn't mean that a Canon is actually better than a db, but I have multiple instance where I shoot different cameras and more than once a client has looked at a db preview and a Canon preview and requested the Canon.

Still, it doesn't mean that we can't get great skin tones out of a db because I and others do, though sometimes it is more work, sometimes not, that is why I always say test these things in your own lighting and style before writing the check.

Look at this hasselblad page and you tell me which base image is more pleasing.

[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virtual-demo-overview/hasselblad-image-quality/natural-color.aspx]http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virt...ural-color.aspx[/url]

Not that  the visual content of the photographs are that good, but Idon't think I'd leave this demo up if I was Hasselblad.



JR

[lisa_r]

This is a p30 shot with tungsten.



http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virt...ural-color.aspx

Not that  the visual content of the photographs are that good, but Idon't think I'd leave this demo up if I was Hasselblad.
JR
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This tungsten shot looks like great color James. What was the light source?

I posted that hassy page because it makes the Canon look better to my eye. And the boxing shot James posted once again makes the Canon looks a lot better there too. And this is an old Canon. Sheesh. They are creating their own bad press.

[BrianSmith]

I posted that hassy page because it makes the Canon look better to my eye. And the boxing shot James posted once again makes the Canon looks a lot better there too. And this is an old Canon. Sheesh. They are creating their own bad press.
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No offense to the guys who created this PR for Hasselblad...but...THEY ARE IDIOTS.

They do their product a great disservice.

Before you buy a $30,000 digital back or for that matter a $3,000 DSLR, try it out.

Do a head to head test in a situation representative of what you shoot with the camera you're using now or whatever else you're considering.

Then go back and work the hell out of the files to see for yourself.

[bryanyc]

It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too.  The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to.  But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical?  This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well.   In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do.   I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect.  My sense is the average person filters out or downplays shadows and reflections to a large degree.    I'm sort of interested to see the truth and have in a way marveled at the differences between what I  thought I saw and what I got in capture.     That being said, were I doing more ad work I'd need to work harder at learning what people want to see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do get what you are saying Eric.  The way we see or assemble a visual impression of a scene is very different to how it can be photographically represented.  It's not all about sharpness and contrast, it is actually about how you value what you are looking at.  And, if you did ad work you have to learn to represent other people's values, visual and otherwise.  

Back on technical topics, I do think it is great advice to work with the rig you are considering shooting with before buying.  I'll have to take that advice myself when I can afford it.  I just have to make do with my lowly Rolliflex, Arcas, and Alpa, while I use the 1dsmk2 and 5d for whatever is required.

To be honest, in a camera, you want a good companion that is going to help you out.  Not be perfect and yet make up for it in some big way like image quality or elegance of use or just sheer durability.  

Currently I find the iPhone camera to produce quite nice color and image although it does go  haywire in some cases.  It appears to be quite wide angle, similar to a 28 I would hazard.  2 mp right?  

[eronald]

Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet.  Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to upload custom ICC profiles into the camera which are then stored with the CR2 file and baked into the JPEGs.  Everybody dismisses color styles as a kindergarten feature, but in truth it's the same feature as C1 Pro's color editor.  And the cool part is - this can uploaded into the camera.  No waiting to get back to your computer to test out a new style.  OF course, once at your computer the color style can be changed (except on JPEGs of course).  So, comparing the colors from a 1Ds2 v 1Ds3 v 5DII is a moving target and will vary based upon which ICC profile is loaded into the 1Ds3 and 5DII.  The 1Ds2 did NOT have this functionality in-camera.  Here are some Canon color preset color styles - including ones optimized for portrait type work -

http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html

To use the color styles, DPP is required.  Other raw format imaging software dismisses the info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are these scene-referred or output-referred profiles ?

Edmund

[lisa_r]

Does anyone know where I can find full-size samples from recent Hasselblad backs on the web?
Or RAW files?

[Snook]

Does anyone know where I can find full-size samples from recent Hasselblad backs on the web?
Or RAW files?
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I really do not understand all the BS of color when it all comes down to how the people at the printers are going to screw it all up anyways.
Most magzines and just about every company has their own way of printing and their profiles to boot.
I cannot tell you how may times I get everything the way I like it and when it comes out in the magazine it loos lie shit.rom one page to the other it changes the color depending what was printing o the back of it or front of it etc..
I beleive all the Color hype is BS.
What james says it correct b/c it is the basis.
My favorite color was from the 1Ds original. it has the most "film" like look to me.
Apparently the MII has gotten that back a little.
I find the Phase files WAY overly saturated.
I tend to like the desaturated/muted look of the Canons. I can get close with my p30 but prefer the Canon beleive it or not.
I will be buying a 5DII and the 85 1.2 for sure....

Snook

[Conner999]

A lot of the Canon 'color' interpretation (love it or leave it) is due to the lenses used. Be it the coatings on Canon glass and/or firmware tweaks done in camera when the camera reads the ROM info to boost saturation, contrast or what have you.

Shoot a scene with a given handful of L lenses and a 5D, 1D_, then shoot the same scene on the same body with a Leica or Zeiss or CV SL lens via adapter and you get dramatically (IMHO) better color. More 'as remembered, no reddish casts (some 5Ds were guilty of same), no over-the-top reds or yellowy greens. Zeiss will typically also have more contrast than Leica or CV and a more cooler WB.

Some key aspects of color delivery will always come down to CCD vs CMOS, sensor used and unknown firmware tweaks conducted in camera, but a LOT comes down to glass used as well.

[James R Russell]

Once you could go online and review prices from around the world, things started changing for "camera" stores.  (At least in the U.S.)  

Customers would walk into their local store and say, I can get a Nikon for $200 less if I buy it at B+H.

At first the dealers, even the large west coast dealers, resisted.  Some dealers went under, some adapted and  now most reputable dealers have very close to the same prices.

I think this Hasselblad announcement will have the same effect.  You will see potential db buyers walk  into their Phase, Leaf or Sinar is that now  Leanar, (sorry  Theirry I couldn't resist) dealer and throw down the Hasselblad prices.

It will be interesting what the response is.

JR

[thsinar]

Sorry James, I couldn't resist either:

No, it's Sinar for the next couple of ....., and my guess is that it's Leaf for the next couple of ... as well.

Best regards,
Thierry

... or Sinar is that now  Leanar, (sorry  Theirry I couldn't resist) ...

JR
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[Lust4Life]

I've owned the Hasselblad H1 & H2 with P45+ on it, and tested at length the Phase/Mamiya with P45+ and I'm currently testing the Leaf AFI 7 - 33MP.

Some of MY candid impressions:
Hasselblad:
     Hands down the best camera/user definable controls - in camera user definable attributes.
     Camera body - fit me great and carried well on a strap when hiking.
     Lenses:  Decent glass but not up to what I was used to with Schneider/Rodenstock on my 4x5 or even as good as I was getting with CFi lenses on my 503cw with P45, but close.
     Sensor - can't say as I only used Phase P45 and P45+ on H1 & H2 respectively - need to check it out in the future but inability to put back on a Technical camera will probably preclude need to test it.
     RAW software - used ACR for all of my work so I can't say about Hasselblads RAW developer.
     Back is not oriented to being used on a Technical camera.  Saw a ridiculous contraption that allowed it but it was more of a joke than useful for anyone doing field work.
     Pricing:  Best for the buck at the moment.
     Why would I buy:  Great camera, but closed system would deter me.  Wish when they dropped prices they had said system will be opened up again.  If they had, I'd have a hard time saying no.

Phase:
     Camera user definable controls - not impressed at all.  Hasselblad way ahead on this one.
     Camera body - do not like - nothing in the right place for my size hands and the placement of the camera straps require that the camera/lens be carried in a horizontal format when on your shoulder.  No hot shoe, etc.
     Lenses:  Adequate, but not overly impressed.  In testing the new WA, I found the corners too soft for my taste, or the price they ask for it.  The 150 tests were excellent.
     RAW software - as good as it gets!  Extremely well designed compared to competitions.
     Back can be used on Technical Camera - a real plus!
     Pricing:  Needs to catch up to Hasselblad.
     Would I buy:  Great support, excellent array, wrong camera body to my taste and Leaf glass is frankly better in all of the tests I've run to date - will be running more this week.
 
Leaf:
     Camera user definable controls:  Not impressed.
     Schneider glass - test are blowing away the Phase/Mamiya glass.  Considering it's a 33MP array, it's more than making up for the lack of MP in the quality of images from the lens!
     Camera body - feels as good as the Hasselblad H, which is perfect for me.  Some concern that the AE and AF settings button could be moved inadvertently.  Needs far more user definable controls and presets.
     RAW software - they should be embarrassed.  
     Back can be used on a Technical Camera - a real plus!
     Pricing:  Needs to catch up to Hasselblad and get in line with, or beat Phase.
     Would I buy:  Love the glass, like the camera body, software is beyond poor, open system - will depend on rest of this weeks testing results AND what Leaf does to get their pricing in line with Hasselblad/Phase.  Currently you can buy a Phase with body, lens and 39MP back for considerable less than the Leaf with 33MP back.  This is not even considering what Hasselblad did at Photokina on pricing!

Thus, the ideal camera for me and my landscape work is the Hasselblad camera body, Leaf Schneider lenses, Phase RAW processor.  As to back, need more testing to define Phase or Leaf - right now leaning to Leaf - greens on foliage look real good and would probably look a lot better if I could develop in Phase's Capture 4 software!

Offerred in the spirit of sharing.  Please remember, I do landscape work, not studio, portraits, products, etc.  These areas of need could dramatically alter the above, but their needs are not my concern in my evaluations.

[jecxz]

Lust4Life,

Landscape shooter too; I have to agree with much of your post. I went from Canon film to H2 film to H3DII39; I seriously considered Phase versus H3DII39 but the II series impressed me (besides the 3" LCD, the notion of a complete system interested me). Obviously I have no issue with this "closed" system concept (I do understand it if you have lots of backs from different manufacturers--I don't); I also wish I could attach a film back to the H3DII39 - because without it I'm limited now to 32 second (soon to be 64 second) exposure. This was a huge issue. 64 seconds is still too fast, but for most of my artwork, 64 seconds will be sufficient. I'll probably end up getting an H2F body if necessary (I have the film back and viewfinder, not a huge investment compared to the overall system cost).

When I switched to MF from 35mm, the H1/H2 was the best MF body out there (by far) and I think it still is. I think the viewfinder (very bright) is the best as well. It's well designed and works well for me.

I've been working on the PC version of Phocus for a week or two now and I think you'd like it (if you're PC - if you're Mac, Phocus has been out for about 6 months already). Huge improvement over Flexcolor. I think they are working hard on it, it looks near ready to be released. My experience with several people at Hasselblad has been that they really care about the success of their product line and company--just don't try to write the president--you'll never hear back.

I also look forward to the new tilt-shift adapter that is soon to be released. I hear there are some other add-ons but I think Hasselblad needs to do some better marketing about their add-on information. I have no information about what they are other than rumors I read on forums.

If I were to consider an MF system today, I'd do Hasselblad again, even though it was high priced, but now, with these new prices, it seems to be a no-brainer.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz

[neil snape]

I'm really glad that the pricing is being reviewed by all the MF makers.
I will return to MF if the prices ALL come into alignment.
At Photokina;

I looked at the Sinar Hy6 took a few shots of nothing just for the feel.

It felt right, like a 500 series Hasselblad, the weight, the lens focusing ring everything about perfect if you are used to a 500 series. In the end if all the controls are in the right place, the mechanics work as expected this makes it a familiar friend. I just can't get used to a H series Hasselblad, Nor will I buy into their closed system>ever.

I looked at the new Leaf rotating back which is perfect. In fact better than the Sinar as it is internal. Leaf's pricing on things like adapter plates are many times less than the exaggerated prices form Sinar. If you are planning on switching accessories or bodies, look into the pricing before getting in.
If Sinar has aligned the pricing of accessories for the Hy6 to that of the very good pricing of the camera/backs then all the better.
I didn't get to see the Phase Mamiya set ups though. I wouldn't say that I would find the 645 style back to be easy to get used considering I bought my first 500 CM in 1980.
The Phase backs though , I'll have to try before getting into the MF digital system.
With the new Nikons, Canon 5D II they are priced so low that they can be the other tool when needed which the MF cannot handle.

[Lust4Life]

Derek,

One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera.  My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work.  

When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.

Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only.  I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system.  I want the Freedom to choose!

[jecxz]

Derek,

One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera.  My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work. 

When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.

Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only.  I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system.  I want the Freedom to choose!
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What you say makes sense. I don't do any technical camera work - I'd like to in the future, and you are right, it's not quite clear from Hasselblad how you can adapt an H3DII to a view camera - they say you can - this is an example of product information marketing that I mentioned. I also understand powering the H3DII back on a view camera is an issue since the power comes from the grip.

Please also don't mistake my post about Hasselblad as my having loyalty towards them, I'm not a spokesperson for Hasselblad. But I don't see them as "dictating" a "closed system" any more than Canon or Nikon does.

I think the case can be made either way: they closed it to conserve on development and limit the amount of programming and support or they did it to keep more of the profits. Perhaps the cost/amount/time of software development invested into the H system makes it in their interests to keep more of the profits--which makes complete sense to me, but yes, unfortunate for you, I do see that.

Be well.

Kind regards,
Derek

[Photomangreg]

Derek,

One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera.  My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work. 

When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.

Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only.  I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system.  I want the Freedom to choose!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The H3DII series, in fact all the hasselblad back, can be removed from the body and used on a technical or view camera.

[jecxz]

The H3DII series, in fact all the hasselblad back, can be removed from the body and used on a technical or view camera.
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This thread made me go and confirm this. You are correct and here is the link to the Hasselblad View Camera PDF:

[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814/uk_hvc_datasheet_v2.pdf]http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814...atasheet_v2.pdf[/url]

I found this document at:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/dat...s/h-system.aspx

It took me a few minutes to find because it's labeled as "Technical info - HVC" with a description of "Technical information about the HVC" - which does not say "View Camera" to me - but I found it nonetheless. Does HVC mean View Camera?

I have not read the entire document yet, but there is a power adapter for the back.

[Photomangreg]

This thread made me go and confirm this. You are correct and here is the link to the Hasselblad View Camera PDF:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814...atasheet_v2.pdf

I found this document at:

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/dat...s/h-system.aspx

It took me a few minutes to find because it's labeled as "Technical info - HVC" with a description of "Technical information about the HVC" - which does not say "View Camera" to me - but I found it nonetheless. Does HVC mean View Camera?

I have not read the entire document yet, but there is a power adapter for the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Derek,

The HVC is the Hasselblad View Camera mounting system, it goes on a Linhof Sliding Back and allows you to power the back with an H series battery, and also allows you to use the 90 degree or waist level view finder and H ground glass ont he system, it is extremely bright for composing and focusing.

i was talking to the Alpa rep the other day, he uses an H3DII39 back on his Alpa with the image bank, a really great solution!

[PHOTO ZARA]

i was talking to the Alpa rep the other day, he uses an H3DII39 back on his Alpa with the image bank, a really great solution!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great solution indeed more space for images. To my knowledge you cannot use H3DII39 back on Alpa without image banks and I wonder why? is this going to change in near future because the prices are good and I would love to get in to MF.

Anyone using Flextight X5 or X1?

[Photomangreg]

Great solution indeed more space for images. To my knowledge you cannot use H3DII39 back on Alpa without image banks and I wonder why? is this going to change in near future because the prices are good and I would love to get in to MF.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is correct, you do need the image bank, or be tethered to a computer to power the H3D back when on a view camera, etc.