Are we going into another depression?

[Nill Toulme]

Yes...but as always, its free will.  Somone at the other end of the phone must say yes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Issues of equal knowledge and bargaining power and full disclosure do come into play.  Even the law recognizes that at some point...

Nill

[Craig Lamson]

Issues of equal knowledge and bargaining power and full disclosure do come into play.  Even the law recognizes that at some point...

Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But it still takes a yes.  Anyone can walk away from the table.  I'm surely not defending excessive tactics on the part of lenders, or merchants of any  kind but the ultimate decision maker is the person saying yes.  

You make choices and you live by the results.  Unless of course you can get the government of bail you out.  That I have a problem with......it seems high finance has now become t-ball.  No one loses.

[Jeremy Roussak]

For a different perspective, read this.

Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks - I've read it. It contains nothing which contradicts or in any way undermines what I wrote.

Jeremy

[David Hufford]

Just wondering after all this medium format talk and prices how many are being affected by the "new" depression that is coming...
If the economy keeps dropping I am wondering how many people are going to be buying so many new toys this year....
I for one have already been affected by the on sight of economic depression.
About Half of my clients have decided NOT to do catalogues and advertising budgets have been raped down to nothing....
Of my other 50% Client base, they have decided to cut their productions in Half!!
I am starting to hear from many other talent in the business calling around to see if anybody is working like before.
This may not be for this forum but after reading through the post of new equipment and prices etc...
I was really wondering how much investment will be going into these new tools if we will be going through an economic crisis.
Is anybody else out there starting to feel the affects yet.
Sorry Michael if this is not for this forum but in some way it does have to do with medium format photography.
Atleast for US who Live by our trade!!!

What do you guys think and what is the plan for the future???
Thanks
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting. I am not a professional photographer and I am in Japan where the problems have not directly hit most people yet---they have me as I am very closely connected to the financial industry---but I have wondered how people in the US seem to be so ready to buy the latest camera or other equipment when the current problem is undeniably very, very serious. If things continue to go bad, it will spread worldwide and put concerns with noise, pixels, and equipment into perspective very fast.

I suppose I am overestimating the seeming lack of concern as shown on photography forums, but I would not feel confident in making any type of major purchase right now. I have lost significant money in the stock market, my wife works for what was ML, and my job depends on those types of companies. But from what I have seen and heard, I would be very conservative right now. We don't know how it will turn out, but the worst case scenario is something that we don't want to experience.

Of course, one could just assume it is all exaggerated media hype and not worry. Good luck.

[David Hufford]

I see the US society worshipping material wealth and the dollar like their god...


... But it is true, the world doesn't like the US except for the money...

This thread is very interesting. I hope nobody takes offense and nobody feels insulted, for whatever reason.
 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224335\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And what does that say about the rest of the world? Is it not worshiping the US dollar?

Unfortunately, there are many who do see the US in this way, generally with no really knowledge of the country other than what they may read in the NYT---of which they will take everything simplistically and literally. It is amazing that people will say things like this and assume that it will not cause offense. The US is an easy target and always has been.

After having spent a large portion of the last 25 years overseas, I have grown used to this. It did NOT start with Bush, but I hope that Americans*  realize what many people really think of us and are more realistic in our foreign, military, and trade policies.


*We can blame the US for claiming the word "American" but for better or worse when it is used in Asia it means the US.

[sergio]

It is amazing that people will say things like this and assume that it will not cause offense. The US is an easy target and always has been.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You harvest what you have sown. And yes you are very right, now the weaknesses are very evident.

Now that WaMu is dead, wealth transfer is almost complete. Just one check away. There's going to be a big party somewhere if that happens, and no mortals will be invited.

Lets go back to pixels and sensors. Lets not ruin the good nature of these forums with such trivial matters as global economic meltdown. This is touchy issue for most of us, and there are other places in the web where to ventilate these fears and angsts.

[BernardLanguillier]

After having spent a large portion of the last 25 years overseas, I have grown used to this. It did NOT start with Bush, but I hope that Americans*  realize what many people really think of us and are more realistic in our foreign, military, and trade policies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Anti-americanism is for sure not new. I am with you in thinking that a lot of it is unfair. Many Americans are doing great and generous things.

Europe used to love the US when you guys were smoking pot and flooding us with cool cars and music. What many Europeans didn't understand back then was that 20% of Americans were involved in that while the opposite 20% were praying every night for God to save California.

What many Europeans still don't get today is that the 20% of Americans still supporting Bush on Fox are no more representative than the pot smokers were 40 years ago.

The thing though is that the very manicheism that America's marketing forces have been making more and more mainstream a perception of the World has backfired at America. Counting the innocent civilians death toll in Irak, it becomes impossible to consider America as a force for the good in a world where you have to be either with or against them.

My cynical hope is that another perceived US trait often disliked by the rest of the world - the universal love for money as the great equalizer - will help corporations convince the politicians they fund that anti-americanism is bad for business. If the world has to be America's customer for America to stay wealthy... then it might make sense to please the world. The customer is king.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Craig Lamson]

Anti-americanism is for sure not new. I am with you in thinking that a lot of it is unfair. Many Americans are doing great and generous things.

Europe used to love the US when you guys were smoking pot and flooding us with cool cars and music. What many Europeans didn't understand back then was that 20% of Americans were involved in that while the opposite 20% were praying every night for God to save California.

What many Europeans still don't get today is that the 20% of Americans still supporting Bush on Fox are no more representative than the pot smokers were 40 years ago.

The thing though is that the very manicheism that America's marketing forces have been making more and more mainstream a perception of the World has backfired at America. Counting the innocent civilians death toll in Irak, it becomes impossible to consider America as a force for the good in a world where you have to be either with or against them.

My cynical hope is that another perceived US trait often disliked by the rest of the world - the universal love for money as the great equalizer - will help corporations convince the politicians they fund that anti-americanism is bad for business. If the world has to be America's customer for America to stay wealthy... then it might make sense to please the world. The customer is king.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm only willing to argue one point of your post.  Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world.  For good or bad, as  the US goes so goes the rest of the world.

[Nill Toulme]

Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.

Nill

[Craig Lamson]

Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.

Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or is it that we just really don't care what others think?

[Moynihan]

Post deleted  

[BernardLanguillier]

I'm only willing to argue one point of your post.  Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world.  For good or bad, as  the US goes so goes the rest of the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tell Coca-cola, Oakley and Nike whether the image of the US matters to them or not...

But you are of course correct,  our economies are indeed highly connected. I guess that Japan and China will be a impacted even more than Europe though.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe because US is a capital verson of "us"?

Cheers,
Bernard

[BFoto]

I'm only willing to argue one point of your post.  Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world.  For good or bad, as  the US goes so goes the rest of the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, and as your financial system continues to fail, so the rest of us have to suffer, for we sheep seem to continually believe that the US way is the only way.

The US has lost the worlds trust regarding Foreign policy and now Monitory policy.

As a result, the US remains responsible for its actions, and as the rest of the world has abandoned the US foreign policy, i think the recent financial situation will result in the long term fundamental shift of foreign capital investment in the US.

The result will be, the US will no longer be capable to maintain itself as the King customer.

[BFoto]

Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.

Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, you can blame that on a couple of factors.

You first need to stop seeing the world as an inferior subject of your empire.
 
You need to avoid Fox news!

[Craig Lamson]

Tell Coca-cola, Oakley and Nike whether the image of the US matters to them or not...

But you are of course correct,  our economies are indeed highly connected. I guess that Japan and China will be a impacted even more than Europe though.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think what really matters to Coke, Oakley and Nike is what the consumers think of the product, not the location of the headquarters.

[Craig Lamson]

Yes, and as your financial system continues to fail, so the rest of us have to suffer, for we sheep seem to continually believe that the US way is the only way.

The US has lost the worlds trust regarding Foreign policy and now Monitory policy.

As a result, the US remains responsible for its actions, and as the rest of the world has abandoned the US foreign policy, i think the recent financial situation will result in the long term fundamental shift of foreign capital investment in the US.

The result will be, the US will no longer be capable to maintain itself as the King customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well sorry to burst your bubble but it's the financial system of most of the free world that is failing.  You seem to want to paint yourself as some sort of poor victim, yet the truth be told, the financial giants worldwide made informed decisions and they used FREE WILL to place thier bets.  Don't blame the US.

And the truth be told the US never HAD the worlds trust, so what exactly has been lost?  Nothing. Oh you were more than happy for us to keep the Russian boogy man at bay with our tax dollars but trust us?  NEVER.

Economics change.  Things go up and things go down.  Its the nature of the beast.  There is no doubt that consumerism will be in decline in the US for some time.  There is also no doubt that this downturn will be reflected WORLDWIDE.  I think we will STILL be the king consumer...just consuming less.  Of course those that provide the products will be producing and selling less as well.

BTW, exactly were are you from?  Your profile is really weak on information.

[BFoto]

Well sorry to burst your bubble but it's the financial system of most of the free world that is failing.  You seem to want to paint yourself as some sort of poor victim, yet the truth be told, the financial giants worldwide made informed decisions and they used FREE WILL to place thier bets.  Don't blame the US.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Um, do your research mate (hint where i'm from).

The deregulation of the banking and finance system of your country by your administration is exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it.

The greedy financial firms around the world saw a way of getting in on something, via the backdoor) that in there own countries (including mine) they were not allowed to do due to regulation.

Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo. Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system.

But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont

[Craig Lamson]

Um, do your research mate (hint where i'm from).

The deregulation of the banking and finance system of your country by your administration is exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it.

The greedy financial firms around the world saw a way of getting in on something, via the backdoor) that in there own countries (including mine) they were not allowed to do due to regulation.

Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo. Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system.

But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems.  Should be an interesting post on your part.

bf sez: "exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it."

Gotta love this line of yours.  Free will cuts both ways.  If you want to sell something you need someone WILLING to buy it.  And something cannot be "un-sellable" if some one purchases it.   Amazing logic.  No wonder the free market confuses you.

bf sez: "Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo."

I'm more than happy to place the blame on quite a good part of America for our current troubles.  But your "We are just poor victims of the evil US" crap is just that...crap.  By you own admission the so called regulation you put so much faith in YOUR country did nothing, and yet you want to blame the US!  Again what amazing logic! The bottom line is that the US never forced anyone to buy anything, and the financials making the purchases were quite savvy and knew the risks.  

bf sez:  "Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system."

I agree with them.  Let the market sort out their own mess.  Let the bad companies fail.  Let those with the cash and vision swoop in a pick the carcass clean and rebuild. That’s how capitalism works.  And like it or not it’s the best system in the world.

Lets just take the big hit now and rebuild, rather that the a slow death of a thousand cuts.  I had hoped that the congress would have learned form the utter failure of FDR.  But I guess not.  

bf sez: "But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off."

This really IS beyond your ken.  The failure of WAMU IS the market working and sorting out their mess.  

WAMU made bad business decisions and failed.  The owners (shareholders) lost their butts as they should.  Governmental regulation (you know the stuff you say we don't have) stepped in and protected the depositors moneys up the prescribed limits and a stronger company swooped in a picked the remains clean.  

In other words it’s exactly how the free market works.

[BFoto]

WAMU made bad business decisions and failed.  The owners (shareholders) lost their butts as they should.  Governmental regulation (you know the stuff you say we don't have) stepped in and protected the depositors moneys up the prescribed limits and a stronger company swooped in a picked the remains clean. 

In other words it’s exactly how the free market works.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, no, when the government comes in it is not the market correcting itself. Its government intervention, as you said, to protect the depositors. If they had not then the deposits are lost, panic, run other banks etc.

Its a good thing that your government came in to save the day, but that is not free market economy. WAMU had over $150billion in holdings, more than the FDIC could afford to insure it for. So, it served better to save it and save the savings. So stop proporting that the markets should self-correct, cause in the case of WAMU, they did not.

The Fed, or US govt central bank, was put in place by the US govt in the early part of the C20th to do exactly what they did with WAMU and what they are trying to do with the rest. However, that is not free market economics.

[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System[/url]