P25 and the Hasselblad V system

[nad54]

Thought I would post this for all people out there with Hasselblad V systems, 500 and 2000, who are considering purchasing a digital back. Or those looking for an affordable MF digital solution. The V system is so good because there is so much kicking around secondhand. Its not perfect and there are more ‘sophisticated’ platforms out there and if you need AF then you need AF but I find for landscape work AF is a pain. I want nice clear usable DOF scales.

What I wanted to post is what I have learnt about the compatability of the Hasselblad V system and a Phase One P25. Some of you may know some of this and some may not. I didn’t know it all until I tested it all out.

Here goes:  

500 series cameras - work fine no problems. Obviously limited to 500 sec fastest speed.

SWC - works really well. Great walk around ‘compact’ with approx 60mm lens when cropped square. Need to shoot reference LCC shot to reduce colour cast in corners. Is this the world’s smallest 22mp compact?
 
Flexbody - works better with a digital back than with film. No risk of exposing film by forgetting to put darkslide in place when cocking shutter. Need to shoot reference LCC shot to reduce colour cast in corners. A cheap way of getting movements but you need a 2 shot cable with the button switch to wake up the back.

Arcbody - back doesn’t fit. The biggest let down as this has the potential to be a really compact landscape camera. The camera back needs slight machining to reduce a raised edge.

203FE (the best camera Hasselblad ever made?). This is this where there is a bit of misinformation floating around. With C lens the camera works as well as 500 series. With CFE lenses you get an exposure meter and auto exposure by using the focal plane shutter. Want to shoot wide open? Using the focal plane shutter gives you 2000th of a second! Lens has to be set to B.

F series lenses work though it is a bit fiddly but is fine for tripod based landscape work. You need a 2 shot cable with the button switch. Procedure is; mirror lockup (optional), press button on cable, shoot, press button again to finish exposure. The time between the two presses of the button has to be less than 5 seconds. Why would you want to do this? Well their are some stunning F series lenses around - the 110mm F2 and the 50mm F2.8 which focusses down to less than 30cm. I picked up an old 50mm F lens up for less than 300 UK pounds. The 60-120mm sells really cheaply used. The downside is that the back is always making ‘long’ exposures increasing the risk of noise slightly. This theoretical risk diminish with a +back.

Used P25s are starting to appear almost affordable for a number of photographers and how many photography colleges and schools must have Hasselblad V cameras floating around. A used or refurbished P25 makes a great system for learning medium format digital without having to get rid of what is still a fantastic and extensive camera system

[uaiomex]

It's good to know about your findings, thanks.
I am waiting for dbacks to come down in price. Apparently they have, enough to start considering myself that it is about to happen. My "deadline" is 10k usd for a used or refurbished P25back or similar with at least 6 months warranty. The new bigger sensor backs will make it happen.

My idea is to use the digital back with my beloved 500CM and a few CF glass. For my shooting style, the "square" medium format cameras with their waist level finders are perfect. I could use more automation and faster systems like the Hy6 and Afi but they command unbelievable prices. I'm sure they are worth the price tough.

For me it's being a money spending battle between saving for this back and purchasing the best glass for my dslr. We are on the verge of seeing incredible advance in dslr's this fall. Up to now, I don't know what it may be for me after this.
We humans are greedy. I've seen that P45 prices are way down too, substantially closing the price gap these 2 backs had when new. So, I'm salivating a 39mp back for my V.
We'll see
Eduardo

Thought I would post this for all people out there with Hasselblad V systems, 500 and 2000, who are considering purchasing a digital back. Or those looking for an affordable MF digital solution. The V system is so good because there is so much kicking around secondhand. Its not perfect and there are more ‘sophisticated’ platforms out there and if you need AF then you need AF but I find for landscape work AF is a pain. I want nice clear usable DOF scales.

What I wanted to post is what I have learnt about the compatability of the Hasselblad V system and a Phase One P25. Some of you may know some of this and some may not. I didn’t know it all until I tested it all out.

Here goes:   

500 series cameras - work fine no problems. Obviously limited to 500 sec fastest speed.

SWC - works really well. Great walk around ‘compact’ with approx 60mm lens when cropped square. Need to shoot reference LCC shot to reduce colour cast in corners. Is this the world’s smallest 22mp compact?
 
Flexbody - works better with a digital back than with film. No risk of exposing film by forgetting to put darkslide in place when cocking shutter. Need to shoot reference LCC shot to reduce colour cast in corners. A cheap way of getting movements but you need a 2 shot cable with the button switch to wake up the back.

Arcbody - back doesn’t fit. The biggest let down as this has the potential to be a really compact landscape camera. The camera back needs slight machining to reduce a raised edge.

203FE (the best camera Hasselblad ever made?). This is this where there is a bit of misinformation floating around. With C lens the camera works as well as 500 series. With CFE lenses you get an exposure meter and auto exposure by using the focal plane shutter. Want to shoot wide open? Using the focal plane shutter gives you 2000th of a second! Lens has to be set to B.

F series lenses work though it is a bit fiddly but is fine for tripod based landscape work. You need a 2 shot cable with the button switch. Procedure is; mirror lockup (optional), press button on cable, shoot, press button again to finish exposure. The time between the two presses of the button has to be less than 5 seconds. Why would you want to do this? Well their are some stunning F series lenses around - the 110mm F2 and the 50mm F2.8 which focusses down to less than 30cm. I picked up an old 50mm F lens up for less than 300 UK pounds. The 60-120mm sells really cheaply used. The downside is that the back is always making ‘long’ exposures increasing the risk of noise slightly. This theoretical risk diminish with a +back.

Used P25s are starting to appear almost affordable for a number of photographers and how many photography colleges and schools must have Hasselblad V cameras floating around. A used or refurbished P25 makes a great system for learning medium format digital without having to get rid of what is still a fantastic and extensive camera system
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[shutay]

It should also be noted that V-mount digital backs are also a good way to breathe new digital life into other systems that otherwise do not directly support the use of digital backs, like large format cameras, or as in my case, my Bronica system (one caveat - Leaf Aptus backs in fact can be ordered with a Bronica mount to fit directly, but at the time, they were out of my price bracket). It usually requires getting an adapter plate made, or if you're lucky, you can buy adapters from folks like Kapture Group or Silvestri.

I did precisely this with my Bronica system and it at least alows me to keep shooting with my existing setup on digital. You can read my brief post about my experience of doing this in this post.

[Conner999]

Excellent info thanks.

BTW it is my understanding that 200 series bodies can be modified by Hasselblad to properly trip the shutter of a digital back when using F series lenses.

Try contacting Pham Min Son at www.getdpi.com - he's a member there (may be here as well) and has had the procedure done with a number of backs. I also think he's selling two such modified backs as we 'speak'.

[nad54]

Excellent info thanks.

BTW it is my understanding that 200 series bodies can be modified by Hasselblad to properly trip the shutter of a digital back when using F series lenses.

Try contacting Pham Min Son at www.getdpi.com - he's a member there (may be here as well) and has had the procedure done with a number of backs. I also think he's selling two such modified backs as we 'speak'.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

From my understanding the modification Hasselblad do to a 203FE is to use the electrical contacts on the camera to send a signal to the back. The CFV back being square only mounts in one direction. The P25 works by a combination of the firing pin at the back of the camera and the flash sync from the lens. Unless someone knows differently the Hasselblad modification would only apply to the CFV back.

The plus thing with a P25 is you can turn it round. It mounts portrait or landscape so you don't have to turn the camera on its side. Makes it much easier to use handheld and perfect for use on a tripod. The only other system you can do this on is the HY6 / AFi.

The prices of P25s are dropping. I bought mine last year ex demo for 6,500 UK pounds.

To my mind the number of exposures is irrelevant - there are no moving parts to wear out as would be the case with the shutter unit etc on a DSLR. As people upgrade there will always be secondhand/refurbished backs for sale. And the V fitting back is very popular.

[tom_l]

little comment/question about the Arcbody:
I always thought that the P25 still works with the Arcbody (as do the older P1 backs). Only newer backs, P45,P21,P30 and the + series won't work anymore. Can anybody cnfirm this?


Tom-

[nad54]

little comment/question about the Arcbody:
I always thought that the P25 still works with the Arcbody (as do the older P1 backs). Only newer backs, P45,P21,P30 and the + series won't work anymore. Can anybody cnfirm this?
Tom-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom

The P25 doesn't fit. I have tried it. There is info about this on the Phase One website/forums if you do a search. It mentions having to machine a raised edge off the rear of the Arcbody. Why Hasselblad did this I don't know as the film backs fit okay. They seemed to want to make the system incompatable with everything else. They fitted a strange bayonet mount to the front of the lens that is unique. They could have just left the screw thread that the Rodenstock lenses came with.

Saying all this it is still a lovely little system. 10-15 years ahead of its time. Just think if it was launched today to fit digital backs and Hasselblad film backs I'd consider buying one.

Saying that Hasselblad would probably have priced it out of the market.

My hope with the V system is that some Russian/Chinese manufacturer or Cosina/Voigtlander decides there is something worth continuing.

For instance an arcbody would be very easy to replicate and the lenses in helical mounts are easily available

[Conner999]

NAD54 - my bad. You're quite right, the mod is only for the CFV.

[adrian tyler]

i got very bad colour casts when i tried out a p45 with my swc too, infact it's the reason decided to wait a coule of years. i'm very impressed with the nikon d3 and the 24 pc-e lens, i stitch two of those frames together vertically and get the EXACT same anglle of view as the SWC...

[mtomalty]

The P25 doesn't fit. I have tried it.

I have also tried it and is DOES fit.

I have used the ArcBody with P25,P45, and P45+ and with Aptus 22

What I did find out,by accident, a few years ago when my Phase rep showed up to demo
a P25 on my Arc was that,initially, it did not fit-the back would not lock onto the ArcBody
as if something was blocking.

Not being very patient I started pushing and pulling  the area around the film 'gate' on the
camera and without too much difficulty,and a lot of surprise, a small metal frame popped off the
camera after which any digital back I used with the Arc would fit without a problem.

Unfortunately,the Arc is long since gone as is the pop out frame so I can provide any
reference images for you to see.

Mark

[nad54]

i got very bad colour casts when i tried out a p45 with my swc too, infact it's the reason decided to wait a coule of years. i'm very impressed with the nikon d3 and the 24 pc-e lens, i stitch two of those frames together vertically and get the EXACT same anglle of view as the SWC...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You have do shoot a lens cast calibration image (through opaque white perspex or similar) in the same light. Capture One then allows you do simply get rid of the cast.

Unfortunately it is the only raw processor I know that has this feature.

On a general note with the P25 I generally find that I get the sharpest results with Raw Developer. It seems to be able to combine sharpness and the tonal depth I need. Whenever I shoot digital I want it to look like film!

[nad54]

You have do shoot a lens cast calibration image (through opaque white perspex or similar) in the same light. Capture One then allows you do simply get rid of the cast.

Unfortunately it is the only raw processor I know that has this feature.

On a general note with the P25 I generally find that I get the sharpest results with Raw Developer. It seems to be able to combine sharpness and the tonal depth I need. Whenever I shoot digital I want it to look like film!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Forgot to add. Shot with a 905SWC and P25 cropped square. Top left corner had colour shift but LCC corrected it easily.

[nad54]

Mark

I completely missed your reply. I tried what you said and the insert dropped out. Fantastic, I thought I was going to end up selling my arcbody system.

Thanks

Andrew

I have also tried it and is DOES fit.

I have used the ArcBody with P25,P45, and P45+ and with Aptus 22

What I did find out,by accident, a few years ago when my Phase rep showed up to demo
a P25 on my Arc was that,initially, it did not fit-the back would not lock onto the ArcBody
as if something was blocking.

Not being very patient I started pushing and pulling  the area around the film 'gate' on the
camera and without too much difficulty,and a lot of surprise, a small metal frame popped off the
camera after which any digital back I used with the Arc would fit without a problem.

Unfortunately,the Arc is long since gone as is the pop out frame so I can provide any
reference images for you to see.

Mark

[DavidP]

I was using the P25 with a 500CM and CW for quite a while. A versatile set up in many ways. Fairly light weight with the waist level finder and manual body.
The sync cable from the back to the lens can be problematic at times. I had the most reliable results with the newer lenses with the locking sync.
Also some of the older C and CF lenses will have problems with long exposures were the sync connection closes before the shutter is done and the back turns off early.
It is kind of random from lens to lens, It is not a problems with the CFi and CFE lenses though.

[bcroslin]

What is the fastest flash sync with the 203FE and the CF and CFE lenses?

[Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS]

What is the fastest flash sync with the 203FE and the CF and CFE lenses?

That would depend on which shutter you select.
If you set the shutter speed ring on the 203FE body to "C" to dis-engage the focal plane shutter then flash synch is 1/500 second.

If you set the CF/CFE lens shutter speed ring to "F" to dis-engage the central shutter in the lens then the flash synch is 1/90 second.

Paul Claesson
Hasselblad USA

[Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS]

I have also tried it and is DOES fit.

Not being very patient I started pushing and pulling  the area around the film 'gate' on the
camera and without too much difficulty,and a lot of surprise, a small metal frame popped off the
camera after which any digital back I used with the Arc would fit without a problem.

Mark

Mark,

That metal frame was called a "stray light mask" and was included with the Arc and Flex bodies. When installed it prevented stray light from striking the film in between the frames on the Arc/Flex body when extreme tilt was applied.

Paul Claesson
Hasselblad USA

[Leonardo Barreto]

Just a small question, does not the RZ 67 also rotate the back ?

From my understanding the modification Hasselblad do to a 203FE is to use the electrical contacts on the camera to send a signal to the back. The CFV back being square only mounts in one direction. The P25 works by a combination of the firing pin at the back of the camera and the flash sync from the lens. Unless someone knows differently the Hasselblad modification would only apply to the CFV back.

The plus thing with a P25 is you can turn it round. It mounts portrait or landscape so you don't have to turn the camera on its side. Makes it much easier to use handheld and perfect for use on a tripod. The only other system you can do this on is the HY6 / AFi.

The prices of P25s are dropping. I bought mine last year ex demo for 6,500 UK pounds.

To my mind the number of exposures is irrelevant - there are no moving parts to wear out as would be the case with the shutter unit etc on a DSLR. As people upgrade there will always be secondhand/refurbished backs for sale. And the V fitting back is very popular.

[clawery]

Just a small question, does not the RZ 67 also rotate the back ?

Leonardo,

The RZ 67 and RZ 67 PRO II requires a Hasselblad V mount Phase One back with one particular adapter plate.  With that adapter plate you must remove the back and manually rotate the back.  The Phase One V mount backs have two sets of "feet" to allow you to position the back vertically or horizontally.  The RZ PRO IID takes a Phase One 645 / Mamiya mount and another specific plate.  This plate does not require any cabling and "talks" directly to the body.  With the PRO IID plate you can rotate without taking the DB off.

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me)
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[Mike Sellers]

Am considering a digital back for a Hasselblad Flexbody. Has anyone used this combination? Which backs will work with the Flex? Doug says the Phase One will work-any others? What about the Kodak DCS?