Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Micro 4/3  (Read 17476 times)

ricciardi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Micro 4/3
« on: August 05, 2008, 05:53:05 pm »

Michael.

Just want to give you my personal perspective on the 4/3.

You know, I had a problem in my right hand. To cut the story short, I can't hold a 1D/70-200 for a long time 'cause my hands hurt.

Now, that is a problem. How can one pursue a passion for photography with such issues?

Well, the 4/3 system helped me. I can hold a 520/50-200 but it's hard to hold a Rebel/70-200.

I reckon the difference is not much when you look at the numbers. But in real life, that's what keeps me shooting.

I'll probably be the first in line to buy this new micro 4/3.

Cheers,

Nelson
Logged

Nemo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 276
Micro 4/3
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 04:04:37 pm »

This is an all new system.

I think it will be a success.

The problem is with the "old" 4/3 system.

It was clear where the problem was:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/L...rspective.shtml

R.
Logged

image66

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Micro 4/3
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 04:38:10 pm »

I don't understand the attitude *AGAINST* the micro 4/3 format.  Aren't options always good?  Doesn't a rising tide raise all boats?

This is like saying that the industry has "arrived" and no new development is necessary.  Just maybe Olympus will bring something to the table that the DP1 hasn't.  Just maybe, this will make a compelling upgrade to the Canon G9.  I haven't seen too many SLR lenses attached to the G9 or DP1 yet.

Maybe the problem is that the m4/3 format doesn't take Nikkor or Canon lenses.  When Nikon or Canon introduce their micro format, we'll be sure to hear an entirely new story.  We've been there before with dust-removal, live-view, lenses optimized for digital sensors....

I guess none of those advances matter until Nikon or Canon does it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 04:39:02 pm by image66 »
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Micro 4/3
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 04:45:26 pm »

Where is the attitude against this?  I'm unable to locate any particularly critical threads.  Could you post a link?
Logged

image66

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Micro 4/3
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 05:11:03 pm »

Quote
Where is the attitude against this?  I'm unable to locate any particularly critical threads.  Could you post a link?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael wrote in his "What's New":
Given that we've now started to see cameras with APS-C sized sensors in small form factors (the Sigma DP-1 is just the first of many to come) and we've seen with the Leica M8 that shallow lens-to-sensor distances are possible due to advances in micro-lens design, it again seems to me that Four Thirds simply doesn't offer any really compelling advantages. I could be wrong though – it wouldn't be the first time.

ken
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Micro 4/3
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 05:12:43 pm »

Quote
Where is the attitude against this?  I'm unable to locate any particularly critical threads.  Could you post a link?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For pessimism about Micro Four Thirds, try the What's New section of this site where Michael says
Quote
Given that we've now started to see cameras with APS-C sized sensors in small form factors (the Sigma DP-1 is just the first of many to come) and we've seen with the Leica M8 that shallow lens-to-sensor distances are possible due to advances in micro-lens design, it again seems to me that Four Thirds simply doesn't offer any really compelling advantages. I could be wrong though – it wouldn't be the first time.
or some forum posts like [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27067&view=findpost&p=213156]Dale Cotton's[/url] and others in that thread.

But overall, comments on MFT here at LL are a fairly reasonable mix of pro and con, while the mindless trash-talk is instead abundant at that other site!


For now, I view MFT as offering the best "bigger sensor compact" option announced so far, with the somewhat smaller format compared to EF-S or DX and the related shorter focal lengths being more an asset than a liability in the intended "compact" market. Of course for me MFT has the side benefit of being able to use my existing lenses on it, so I would not need all new lenses; maybe just a small standard zoom and or pancake prime.
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Micro 4/3
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 05:12:50 pm »

The 4/3rds system has been a designated whipping-boy from the day it was introduced, for no reason I can discern.  It's principle problem is that it has not delivered significantly smaller equipment than the smallest 35mm dslrs.  

The notion of truly compact interchangeable lens cameras delivering the full 4/3rds sensor-size and quality is really exciting.  As I noted in my review of the Canon G9, smaller size cameras can offer significant creative advantages, limited only by their small sensor size.  

To me, the micro 4/3rds may be just the right compromise if **IF** the viewfinders are truly useable.  

It will be interesting.

As for the comment that it's a shame they don't take Canon or Nikon glass, frankly many would say that Olympus has always matched or bettered these competitors.

- N.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Micro 4/3
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 05:18:18 pm »

Quote
Michael wrote in his "What's New":
Given that we've now started to see cameras with APS-C sized sensors in small form factors (the Sigma DP-1 is just the first of many to come) and we've seen with the Leica M8 that shallow lens-to-sensor distances are possible due to advances in micro-lens design, it again seems to me that Four Thirds simply doesn't offer any really compelling advantages. I could be wrong though – it wouldn't be the first time.

ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is that four thirds or micro four thirds?  I read it as being four thirds.
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Micro 4/3
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 05:21:36 pm »

Quote
But overall, comments on MFT here at LL are a fairly reasonable mix of pro and con, while the mindless trash-talk is instead abundant at that other site!
For now, I view MFT as offering the best "bigger sensor compact" option announced so far, with the somewhat smaller format compared to EF-S or DX and the related shorter focal lengths being more an asset than a liability in the intended "compact" market. Of course for me MFT has the side benefit of being able to use my existing lenses on it, so I would not need all new lenses; maybe just a small standard zoom and or pancake prime.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I want an e-420 mostly for the tiny kit lens.  (Not the pancake prime.  The other one.)  i'll hang out to see what they do with m43.
Logged

ricciardi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Micro 4/3
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 05:50:35 pm »

Quote
It's principle problem is that it has not delivered significantly smaller equipment than the smallest 35mm dslrs. 

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213492\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ndevlin,

What I tried to imply, in my original post, was that at least in my case, the smaller and lighter Olympus system IS a reality and is keeping me shooting.

And I tried the Rebel with 70-200. Too heavy.

A E-520 with 50-200 works.

So, at least in my case, the 4/3 is a blessing. It would be either the Olympus or a Compact (G9 probably). Or a hand surgery.
Logged

John Camp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2171
Micro 4/3
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 06:09:07 pm »

Quote
Ndevlin,

What I tried to imply, in my original post, was that at least in my case, the smaller and lighter Olympus system IS a reality and is keeping me shooting.

And I tried the Rebel with 70-200. Too heavy.

A E-520 with 50-200 works.

So, at least in my case, the 4/3 is a blessing. It would be either the Olympus or a Compact (G9 probably). Or a hand surgery.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No offense, but you're not going to buy enough 4/3 equipment to sustain the market.

The essential problem with 4/3 involves resolution and sensor/pixel size which, so far, have been pretty much unbeatable. Bigger sensor, more and bigger pixels equals better quality...and it really doesn't matter how good the Olympus lenses are. We're no longer using film, where everybody had the same sensor, so that lenses were *the* critical element in the system. Now, sensors are just as important. So if you want the best quality in 35mm-sized equipment (without going to the outrageously expensive and only marginally better MF gear), then you go with full-frame gear, or, at least, with a system that could accommodate FF gear eventually, as with Pentax or Leica. 4/3 is designed *not* to accommodate FF sensors. If you don't need the resolution or quality of 35mm gear, then why pay near-FF price for an Olympus, when you can get such good-quality cameras as the G9, or the many super zooms, which are both smaller and cheaper?

JC
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Micro 4/3
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 07:09:10 pm »

Quote
Ndevlin,

What I tried to imply, in my original post, was that at least in my case, the smaller and lighter Olympus system IS a reality and is keeping me shooting.

And I tried the Rebel with 70-200. Too heavy.

A E-520 with 50-200 works.

So, at least in my case, the 4/3 is a blessing. It would be either the Olympus or a Compact (G9 probably). Or a hand surgery.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you noticed that much difference between 4/3rds and, say, a Rebel with a small lens, you'd probably be in the minority (though I don't discount your experience at all).  Ironically, Olympus has released some amazing lenses for the system, but they are huge! (and hugely costly).

If they can really drop the lens-size but provide high ISO performance that is scaleably comparable to a G9, they'd really have something.

As for price, I don't think that will be that much of an obstacle to market share if the product is really unique and powerful. I, personally, would pay a LOT for a small, high-ISO competent, stabilized, interchangeable lens system, and i suspect many others will, too.

For the vast majority of photographic applications one does not need anything approaching the current top-end of 35mm dslrs.

- N.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Micro 4/3
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 04:04:05 am »

Quote
For the vast majority of photographic applications one does not need anything approaching the current top-end of 35mm dslrs.

- N.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]





So someone, somewhere, is going to spend good money in the understanding that his photography is never going to amount to much "in the majority of his photographic applications"?

Clearly a case of more money than sense. Or an undernourished ego; here, share some of mine...!

Rob C

Pete Ferling

  • Guest
Micro 4/3
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 10:52:00 am »

I tried the oly 410e, and it was not a bad deal with the two lens (slow but good for the money).  However, it was too small for my grip and I returned it a week later and upgraded to an EOS 40D.  Only to find out later that my wife wanted it.  However, she decided to keep her G5 cause its fits in her handbag.  So, it looks likes I'll have some new toys to consider by christmas.

In fact, I wouldn't mind having one myself (almost picked up a G9), to for the family trips where a 40D would get in the way.  It's not a replacement, it's just another choice for the consumer.

-Pete
Logged

Moynihan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 119
    • jay moynihan:  glances stares & nods
Micro 4/3
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 03:28:46 pm »

I for one am very interested in the micro-4/3, for a small carry-around type camera/system. For me, this is assuming:

Good optics
Good ergonomics
A good EVF
Not loading the puppy with a clutter of "scene modes", etc.

It may end up being among the first steps (the other being the DP-1)in a major format/hardware realignment.

For instance, Nikon. What if they are thinking:

Future DSLR w/optical view finders and Live view, but FF.
DX lenses will not be orphaned, rather they will form the initial lense base for a future line of DX sensor EVF cameras?

Maybe all DX/APS-whatever cropped sensors will migrate down so to speak, with EVF and video added, "replacing" the P&S/bridges, with cellphone camera functions chewing their way up from the bottom.

Do not know, just a speculatin'

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Micro 4/3
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 04:48:08 pm »

Quote
A good EVF

So far as I know only the Konica Minolta Dimage A2 has had a decent EVF and that one was as silly laggy as everyone elses.  I hope they make one but the track record for the industry in this regard is pretty poor.
Logged

image66

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Micro 4/3
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2008, 06:56:34 pm »

Quote
No offense, but you're not going to buy enough 4/3 equipment to sustain the market.

The essential problem with 4/3 involves resolution and sensor/pixel size which, so far, have been pretty much unbeatable. Bigger sensor, more and bigger pixels equals better quality...and it really doesn't matter how good the Olympus lenses are. We're no longer using film, where everybody had the same sensor, so that lenses were *the* critical element in the system. Now, sensors are just as important. So if you want the best quality in 35mm-sized equipment (without going to the outrageously expensive and only marginally better MF gear), then you go with full-frame gear, or, at least, with a system that could accommodate FF gear eventually, as with Pentax or Leica. 4/3 is designed *not* to accommodate FF sensors. If you don't need the resolution or quality of 35mm gear, then why pay near-FF price for an Olympus, when you can get such good-quality cameras as the G9, or the many super zooms, which are both smaller and cheaper?

JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213516\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Honestly, I'm confused.  You start out talking about bigger sensor equals better quality, then you end up praising the G9 which has far less than 25% the surface area of a 4/3 sensor.

I don't agree at all that you have to go to FF 35mm to get "quality" images. Although it is true that bigger pixels will be quieter than small pixels, the issue of "fill-factor" still exists. Also, there is more on-sensor noise-removal/reduction and other advances in in-camera image-processing going on to choke a horse. Look at how noisy the Canon 10D looks now.  A few years ago, it was the cat's meow in ultra-quiet sensors.  Now, the G9 with a sensor 1/6 the size is rivaling it or exceeding it in quality.  At what point have we hit the point of diminishing returns? At what point do we recognize that the sliding scale of "image quality" is just a means of getting us to part with our money for new equipment?

Of course, we're hanging out on the website of the poster-child of "Seekers of the Holy Grail."    When was the last time we've seen Michael say "this sensor/back is now sufficient".  I wonder if he even has his G9 anymore--of which he praised to the point of near embarrasement.  

Personally, I am very interested in the micro 4/3 for more reasons than I could outline here in a few moments. When you consider that 95% of my images are cropped to 5x7 or 4x5 ratios, an APS-C or even FF 35mm frame is heavily wasted. I have further discovered that DoF and Bokeh issues are MORE an issue of lens design than "format". Maybe that's why I still prefer to use 30 year old lenses on my DSLR. (yes, my entire stable of FF 35mm lenses are used on my 4/3 camera)

Granted, I am still saddened that Olympus did not persue FF-35mm digital. That has been a thorn of contention for me, but the fact is, that I can count on less than a full hand of fingers the number of images not adequately fulfilled because the sensor was only 4/3.  No more than TWO images per year.  But that's me, and if I think I want FF-35mm for an image, I happen to actually use the ultimate 35mm film-camera--an OM-4T. (yes, I am biased).  But that's what professionals do--they use the proper tool for a job and no more.  No need to haul out the 8x10 field camera to do a grip-n-grin for the newspaper.

As innovative as Olympus has been through the decades, and with the exceptional lens quality they are known for, I can't imagine that Nikon and Canon will stay quiet for long. We've been crying for a camera of this category for years.  The bridge cameras got really close before they ALL disappeared from the marketplace. The Konica-Minolta really ending up being best-of-class followed very closely by the Olympus C8080.  Now, nothing.

More power to Olympus for taking the risk. Had they not, we wouldn't have had the Pen series, the OM-series, which were absolutely tiny compared to every other DSLR at the time, the XA, and of course, they pioneered the concept of the bridge camera or "all-in-one" camera.

But none of these advancements matter not to the modern armchair photographers who compare which is "best" based totally on the noise-comparison and res-charts published on DPR. But ask these same people how a camera will capture the colors of an African Violet???  Do these same poeple know what the actual wavelength sensitivity curves are for a given camera?  Do they realize that some cameras cannot capture the color purple at all--except for the purple rendered in pigment or dye on a MacBeth colorchecker?

No, it's all resolution and high-iso sensitivity.  Yes, ONLY Full Frame 35mm will deliver the "best". That's it--everything else is an "also-ran".

Meanwhile, ever since day one of digital, it has been generally accepted that with rare exception, Olympus has not only the best skintones and image-color, but the best overall lenses.  Even the least-expensive kit lenses are excellent performers. Can the same be said of the other manufacturers?

Excuse the rant--this is NOT aimed at you, John. I know my fanboyism is showing, but I can give you a whole list of areas where Olympus DSLR products stink, but strangely enough, not in the areas that you'd assume.

 Ken
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Micro 4/3
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 11:32:09 am »

Quote
If you don't need the resolution or quality of 35mm gear, then why pay near-FF price for an Olympus, when you can get such good-quality cameras as the G9, or the many super zooms, which are both smaller and cheaper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213516\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Apart from the inconsistency of appealing to the IQ advantage of 35mm over 4/3 and then ignoring the IQ advantage of 4/3 over cameras like the G9 and super zooms (there is a similar ratio of sensor size in each case), what is the basis for the idea of near-FF price for 4/3 or Micro 4/3?

The new wave of 35mm format DSLR's are so far priced at $3,000; the Olympus E-420 is $440, and an entry level Micro 4/3 body is likely to be priced a bit lower, given the "digicam step-up" market that is mainly targeted.

By the way, the price ratio betwen 35mm and smaller DSLR formats has risen over the years.
Logged

John Camp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2171
Micro 4/3
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 01:54:41 pm »

BJL, Image66, there's nothing inconsistent with what I wrote. There are two cases: 1)If you want top-end image quality, you use a FF DSLR, or, if you can afford it, and you don't need the flexibility of a DSLR, you use a MF system. 2) If you don't need top-end quality, you can get *very good* quality from cameras like the G9 or any number of other super-zooms; or from the major companies' down-market cameras like Nikon's D60, which is cheap, light, uses an APS sensor, and can use FF-usable lenses if you wish to buy them -- and then, if you upgrade to FF, you don't have to buy an entirely new system.

I am simply suggesting that you might not want to pay near-FF prices for a  system that does not provide FF quality, and really has no opening to do so in the future (4/3 lenses can't be adopted to FF.) Olympus and other 4/3 manufacturers will be increasingly squeezed by the advancing quality of the P&S cameras (and there are rumors that both Canon and Nikon are working on APS-C P&S's), and by the increasing quality of DSLRs, which they won't be able to match.

Olympus lenses are second to none. The problem is that that the sensor won't be able to compete. In the old days, *the* critical component for any system was the lens, because the camera was just a light-tight box and all the sensors were standardized and came from Kodak or Fuji, etc. That's no longer true; now, I'd argue, the sensor is *more* important than the lenses, because the lenses have converged in quality, while the sensors have not.

JC
Logged

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4770
    • Robert's Photos
Micro 4/3
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2008, 03:38:41 pm »

The ongoing debates about the viability of 4/3 puzzle me. There is not much difference in physical size between the 4/3 and APS-C sensors. The models compete in the APS-C price realm, so why compare to FF? Why compare to P&S? If Olympus had decided to build a system based on APS-C sensors, would we be having these discussions?

And yes, Olympus may never build an FF system. They may not build a medium format system either. So what? That only matters to people who want those things.

Occasionally I read comments that whatever improvement that 4/3 makes to their sensors can also be made to APS-C sensors. Yes, that's undoubtedlly true. But when Pentax makes improvements to an APS-C sensor camera I don't recall reading a criticism of that, that other makers will do the same. Technology developments leapfrog each other all the time. (IBM and DEC used to be really important in the computer world.)

There seem to be high-ISO noise and DR issues with the current selection of 4/3s cameras, when compared to some APS-C cameras. This may be a valid criticism of the current crop of Panasonic 4/3 chips. They will either improve them to match the performance of the others or they won't, or maybe even make them better than the others; time will tell. What does that have to do with the format?

Besides, the differences in performance seem to be small, in the sense that they affect a minority of shooting situations, so it seems to me that the worry over these problems is out of proportion to their real world importance. And those kinds of performance differences resolve themselves in retail price differences. It seems to me that the system provides sufficient performance for a lot of users. Why does it need do anything else?

It may also be true that not all of the 4/3s hype over the small size of body and lenses has come to pass, although the 410 is Pentax MX size and relatively small lenses do provide long reach for the money. But so what? Why is it so important to call to task the claims of the Olympus marketing department? They're not the first to have exaggerated.

I don't have an axe to grind, I own no stock in Olympus. I happen to own an E-1 with the 70-300, but I own other gear too and if Oly terminated their 4/3 involvement, it wouldn't bother me much. I don't just get all the hand-wringing.
Logged
--
Robert
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up