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Author Topic: P21+ Versus P30+ ?  (Read 4014 times)

barry685

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« on: September 05, 2008, 09:34:06 am »

1. Is there less potential for Moire issues with the P30+?
2. Is there an advantage to the 9 micron pixel size on the p21+ over the P31+ smaller pixel size.?
3. Which back will produce a cleaner 400 ISO image under outdoor, low light, shaded conditions?
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michele

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 10:03:57 am »

James Russell is the right person to talk with... I guess he owns both backs...

lance_schad

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 10:04:30 am »

Quote
1. Is there less potential for Moire issues with the P30+?
2. Is there an advantage to the 9 micron pixel size on the p21+ over the P31+ smaller pixel size.?
3. Which back will produce a cleaner 400 ISO image under outdoor, low light, shaded conditions?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

1.Yes there is less of a chance for Moire' because of the pixel dimensions 6.8 vs 9.0
2. Theoretically you have lower noise, but that does not take into account parts of the system that create noise and or reproduction size.
3. The P30+ will produce a better 400 iso image because of the chip design.

lLance Schad
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Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
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James R Russell

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 11:31:46 am »

Quote
1. Is there less potential for Moire issues with the P30+?

You can get moire in anything and unless you shoot both cameras side by side in the excact conditions it's almost impossible to answer.  I've seen more moire from the p30+ but I've used it more than the p21+.  

There is also a lot of types of moire, pattern, colour, a combination.  The best test is the blue shell top or a men's grey small plaid jacket.   Women's patterned hoisery also will pattern moire.

Quote
2. Is there an advantage to the 9 micron pixel size on the p21+ over the P31+ smaller pixel size.?

What I think is an advanage is probably a negative to some others.  It depends on what/how you shoot.  The p30+ has amazing detail for that size of sensor and the price, but it is  smoother and for me sometimes too smooth.  The p21+ has more texture when worked deep in post so I guess you could say a little more grain.  I like that, some others may not.

These really are two different digtial films and can be made to look very different.  Once again it depends on what you shoot.  The upside to the p21+ is it has more texture, shoots much faster and is 1/2 the price of the p30+.

The downside is if you send your image to outside sources for retouching, or one of those images that goes through 10 rounds of correction, you may hear that the p21+ is a small file given that uninterpolated in processing it's much smaller than the p30+.  

Still, for 98% of what I do I can shoot either back and if they are rezzed up or down to the same size nobody says anything or knows the difference.  

Quote
3. Which back will produce a cleaner 400 ISO image under outdoor, low light, shaded conditions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As far as iso, once again it depends on what you shoot, how it's lit.  Soft even light at 400 iso the p21+ doesn't show much noise, in fact it shows little at all.

[attachment=8220:attachment]

Harsher, or more backlit, 3/4 lit with darker subjects you will see more noise, underexposed even more, but it depends on what you shoot.

I would not say in general that the 30+ is a full stop better than the 21+, maybe 1/2 a stop but it depends on what you shoot.

[attachment=8221:attachment]

And it depends on how you light and the ambient conditions.

Overall in shaded light, like open shade under a tree or awning, the phase backs, most medium format in general, is very ambient color sensitive.  If the grass is green you will get a lot of yellow green in the subject, blue sky, lot of blue.  For this type of lighting the Canons really are nicer in overall look and seem to be a little more color dumb.

The backs are very sensisitve to ambient color and obviously need some new color presets written for the software, though Raw Developer handles skin tone color better than almost any 3rd party processor.

Still, for a medium fomat back I believe the 21+ has as good, if not better color response of any back I've used.

[attachment=8222:attachment]

I think the 21+ is the deal of the century if you must have a digital back as the cost is low, the shooting speed is great and it is good up to 400 iso.  

All of the phase backs (at least my two) are very strong and sturdy really dependable though the physcial design of the back is starting to look a little dated, compared to the new hasselblad and Sinar backs, but they are built like a tank.

After 400 iso I haven't owned any digital back that really performs that well.  You can use them all at 800 iso but you start to see a lot of detail loss, to the point the image begins to look like a much  lower detailed camera.

All of medium format really does need a lot of external light.

You really need to try them side by side in the conditions you shoot to and if you have the opportunity try them next to a 1ds3.


JR
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 11:35:18 am by James R Russell »
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Raphael

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 12:01:36 pm »

You really need to try them side by side in the conditions you shoot to and if you have the opportunity try them next to a 1ds3.



James,

does this mean that you might be starting to use your 1ds3 more than the medium format backs?

R.

(also on a different note, did you shoot the latest Zara ads?)
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barry685

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 12:19:20 pm »

James,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply.

I do own a 1dsMKII & a 5d and have not been happy with them outdoors. Always seem to get a hazy look & very soft raw's with backlit lighting. Even when using lens shades & scrims to block light from lenses. I attribute that to the Anti Aliasing. Hoping Medium format will be a lot sharper.
I do on occasion run into Morie even with canons. I photograph family's & children.

Barry
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James R Russell

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 12:33:57 pm »

Quote
James,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply.

I do own a 1dsMKII & a 5d and have not been happy with them outdoors. Always seem to get a hazy look & very soft raw's with backlit lighting. Even when using lens shades & scrims to block light from lenses. I attribute that to the Anti Aliasing. Hoping Medium format will be a lot sharper.
I do on occasion run into Morie even with canons. I photograph family's & children.

Barry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know about hazy, but I do wish they would rip the aa filter off the 1ds3 (or at least offer an option).  

I still shoot with everything I own, but lately the last 3 projects I've shot 99.9999999% with the 1ds3.

When you start the day with three truck loads of equipment, it's not a problem to have one more camera bag and I usually start with the medium format cameras, though lately I've had a lot of low and mixed light situations where I've needed a clean 640 iso on a 35 or 800 iso on the medium format cameras and for me there is no real clean 800 iso in medium format.  

One special need I have is we shoot digital video next on every project.   If your working fast, (and everybody is working fast nowdays) nothing is more difficult than trying to match continuous light next to flash and though we do it, it complicates the process and it is much easier to use one set of continuous daylight balanced lights, than try to use two sets and have them match.

What I would give if profoto would go back to their hmi's and continue with that line of lights as you can match modifiers easily.  Actually I would love to see profoto offer a flash head with a hmi lamp installed.  

I can't explain how much easier that would make life.  The medium format guys will swear to you that most of these cameras go to 800 iso clean and if the light is soft and there is a lot of fill they do (well almost do).    But if your shooting darker subjects or have the light dropping and changing then the Canons will save you about 4000 hours and a lot of stomach turning.

One of the things with medium format is at high iso the expsoure is very critical.  droppinng just 1/2 a stop will change the nosie 100% so you have to be dead on with exposing so you had better tehter because most medium format lcd's are  . . . challanged at best.

Actually if you want the no aa filter look of medium format and can work a rangefinder then look at the Leica M8.

[attachment=8223:attachment]

Just don't go above 400 iso.

JR



P.S.  Of the two earlier "blue" images those are shot with the p21+ and it worked fine, but they are right on the limit.  There is not 1/3 of a stop more to get out of them where with a 1ds3 I would have had another stop or two to play around with.

The 1ds2 I guess a stop more, but I really didn't like that camera and the moment I got the 3's I sold the 2's in a heartbeat.

I'm not saying that a Canon will replace a medium format back, because in many instances it doesn't, but if you work under a lot of light challanging conditions, I would suggest not to leave home without one.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 12:50:50 pm by James R Russell »
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Jonathan H

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 12:35:50 pm »

If you're looking for fine pixel level detail, you can send in your 5D to www.maxmax.com and have them remove your AA filter - costs $450 I think and they call it the "hotrod 5D"

I just picked one up recently and haven't really had a chance to test it out, but it appears to be good.  Adds a very subtle, but noticeable difference.
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marcmccalmont

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P21+ Versus P30+ ?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2008, 01:37:43 pm »

Quote
If you're looking for fine pixel level detail, you can send in your 5D to www.maxmax.com and have them remove your AA filter - costs $450 I think and they call it the "hotrod 5D"

I just picked one up recently and haven't really had a chance to test it out, but it appears to be good.  Adds a very subtle, but noticeable difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have owned a 5D hotrod for over 2 years and like it a lot. But remember Canons have 2 AA filters one vertical and one horizontal. Maxmax only removes the outer one. I still think it is a good improvement.

Marc

PS focusfixer works very well with the 5D hotrod
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 01:38:56 pm by marcmccalmont »
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