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Author Topic: Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?  (Read 24939 times)

TMARK

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 03:30:59 pm »

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Beer and food pairing. Interesting article http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/243beerandfood.html

"The flavor hook is the part of the beer’s flavor and aroma that matches, harmonizes or accentuates the flavors in your food. When the flavors meet on your tongue, they "recognize" each other and this creates a harmony.

Sometimes, rather than harmony, you’re setting up a pleasant contrast. Beer can have flavors of caramel, coffee, chocolate, bread, bananas, limes, herbs, smoke or raspberries–there’s a lot here to work with."
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Thanks for th link.  My friend owns a bar on McDougal, 124 Rabbit Club.  Its a beer/wine bar.  He was pawning off this RauschenBier, a German beer that complies with the Reinheitsgebot but adds a twist to the flavor.  Tastes like a campfire.  Kind of gross.  I'll check your link to see if there is pairing for RauchenBier.

Abita Amber goes really, really well with spicy Louisiana food.  Maybe I'll make Jambalyia tonight . . .
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rainer_v

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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 03:33:24 pm »

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That sounds fantastic!  My Depression Special was really good, and really cheap.  I'm sure it wasn't as good as your steak, but man, there is something about a good hot dog that makes me really happy.  Last time I was in Munich I had a great lunch of Weisswurst, spicy brown mustard, and a litre of Warsteiner.  Man that was good!
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the problem with traditional bavarian food in our digital stoneage is that they just use 11 of their 20 available bits. the rest is beer.
and this makes me feel somehow crazy if i take more than 6 bits of it. man ....
and this are 9 !!!!!!!!!          

maybe i should eat my 5d.
its not water- resistant so all the beer is running out of it even if you fill in 12bit. or to go with the 1ds3?
any advice highly appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:36:26 pm by rainer_v »
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hdomke

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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 03:34:21 pm »

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I *think* (note sarcasm) it has been recommended before to go out and take some pictures.  Work with them, then you will see.
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Your suggestion makes since; I agree. As I have said on my previous posts, I actually have gone out and done side-by-side comparisons. Specifically, I have compared my 1DsMk3 to the Phase One P45+ and also the Hasselblad 39 MP camera.

The reason I have been persistent with my posts here is that I was surprised at how little difference there was. But my experience was limited to just a few test shots, so I was reluctant to base my decisions on a limited experience.  I thought that those of you who use these cameras every day could shed some light (theoretical and practical) on the differences.

When I enlarged these images to ten-feet wide and then took a section from the center to print, the difference were much less than I expected. Clearly the MF backs shows more fine detail, but with a more vigorous application of Unsharp Masking the difference was impossible for me  to appreciate at normal viewing distance (3-feet).

Regarding shadow detail, highlight detail and noise, I could see no difference whatsoever. Granted, these pictures were perfectly exposed and did not need radical adjustments; but in the real world, my exposures are almost always correct.

Before I go and spend large amounts of money on a new camera system and spend the hours it takes to learn how to use it, I want to reasonable assurance that the quality differences will be apparent to me and my clients.

Based on what I have seen with my own experience and have learned so far on this forum, I remain unconvinced that upgrading to Medium Format is worth it for my business. But I am trying to remain open minded. My business incidentally is to sell large nature photographs  to commercial clients. The prints are make on an Epson Stylus Pro 11880 and sizes range to 5 x 8-feet and larger.

If you disagree with my conclusion, please try convince me otherwise.
Thanks!
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Henry

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TMARK

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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 03:44:52 pm »

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the problem with traditional bavarian food in our digital stoneage is that they just use 11 of their 20 available bits. the rest is beer.
and this makes me feel somehow crazy if i take more than 6 bits of it. man ....
and this are 9 !!!!!!!!!          

maybe i should eat my 5d.
its not water- resistant so all the beer is running out of it even if you fill in 12bit. or to go with the 1ds3?
any advice highly appreciated.
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I'd wait for the new Nikon.  14 bit, 24 megapixels, water proof, such that it will hold a liter of Pilsner or 750 cl of heavier Belgian Trappist or Bavarian dopple bock. I heard, and I can't confirm or tell you who told me (it was Annie Leibowitz) that the new Nikon will have a sausage maker built into the rear display.  Nice.  Real nice.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 03:48:08 pm »

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I'd wait for the new Nikon.  14 bit, 24 megapixels, water proof, such that it will hold a liter of Pilsner or 750 cl of heavier Belgian Trappist or Bavarian dopple bock. I heard, and I can't confirm or tell you who told me (it was Annie Leibowitz) that the new Nikon will have a sausage maker built into the rear display.  Nice.  Real nice.
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wow.
hicks.
urg ... ups.
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Mort54

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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 03:57:21 pm »

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If you disagree with my conclusion, please try convince me otherwise.
Henry, if you've already made up your mind, why continue to beat a dead horse? Act on your conclusions.

I'm not dissing you here, I'm just confused about where you're coming from and what your purpose in posting this thread is. A lot of people on this forum think you are just trying to trash MFDBs, that you are carrying the torch for Canon. Hence the hostility you get on this forum.

Personally, I've compared images from my D3 and a friends 1DsIII. I'll take the D3's images anytime. Please try to convince me otherwise.

Personally, I've compared D3 and 1DsIII images with images from my P45+. I'd much rather have the P45+ images. Please try to convince me otherwise.

Personally, I find fall supperior to spring. Please try to convince me otherwise.

Personally, I find classic coke much better than pepsi. Please try to convince me otherwise.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:59:31 pm by Mort54 »
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Anthony R

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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 04:03:53 pm »

"You have chosen to ignore hdomke. View this post · Un-ignore hdomke"

TMARK, I know they're supposed to be so good and all, but I've never been a fan of German beir in general. A friend of mine is German and she's always having us meet up at Zum Schneider and Loreley and the like. Fine places, but I'd rather a nice microbrew most often. I'll have to check out Abita Amber. Big fan of ambers, bitters, browns and pale ales.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 04:08:15 pm »

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"You have chosen to ignore hdomke. View this post · Un-ignore hdomke"

TMARK, I know they're supposed to be so good and all, but I've never been a fan of German beir in general. A friend of mine is German and she's always having us meet up at Zum Schneider and Loreley and the like. Fine places, but I'd rather a nice microbrew most often. I'll have to check out Abita Amber. Big fan of ambers, bitters, browns and pale ales.
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i am with mort in this case:

"Personally, I find classic coke much better than pepsi. "

did you realize that he is saying CLASSIC ?
not sinar, not leaf, not phase, not hassy.
CLASSIC !!!

means analog.
thats out. isnt it? no bits. no 3d. no 5d. no canon.
classic.

just realized that it seems to me that the canon even offers 5D.
with my backs i only get 3D !!!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 04:11:53 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Mort54

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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 04:14:08 pm »

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i am with mort in this case:

"Personally, I find classic coke much better than pepsi. "

did you realize that he is saying CLASSIC ?
not sinar, not leaf, not phase, not hassy.
CLASSIC !!!

means analog.
thats out. isnt it? no bits. no 3d. no 5d. no canon.
classic.

just realized that it seems to me that the canon even offers 5D.
with my backs i only get 3D !!!
Well, I do complain if I find bits in my classic coke. So I guess you're right, that does mean it's analog.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 04:15:25 pm by Mort54 »
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TMARK

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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 04:15:22 pm »

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"You have chosen to ignore hdomke. View this post · Un-ignore hdomke"

TMARK, I know they're supposed to be so good and all, but I've never been a fan of German beir in general. A friend of mine is German and she's always having us meet up at Zum Schneider and Loreley and the like. Fine places, but I'd rather a nice microbrew most often. I'll have to check out Abita Amber. Big fan of ambers, bitters, browns and pale ales.
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My German friends like Coors.  Seriously.  They are mainly from the Luneberg Heath/North German Plane area, but still.  "Coors, its crip and refreshing.  From the Rockies!"  I'm usually shocked.  

I myself love the ambers and ales.  Abita is like a smoother, more "hopsie" if you will, version of New Castle, which I also like.  I have a soft spot for Louisiana products, and Abita is one of the best.  Dixie, on the other hand, is one of the worst.

I do like Bavarian beer, but the wheats.  I do not like lagers, and can obly tepidly support pilsners.

Sometimes I like King Kobra, mainly because of the Billy D commercials.  I'm also known to drink Old English on occassion, but only because I really really like Ice Cube.
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jonstewart

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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 04:17:47 pm »

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I'd wait for the new Nikon.  14 bit, 24 megapixels, water proof, such that it will hold a liter of Pilsner or 750 cl of heavier Belgian Trappist or Bavarian dopple bock. I heard, and I can't confirm or tell you who told me (it was Annie Leibowitz) that the new Nikon will have a sausage maker built into the rear display.  Nice.  Real nice.
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D'y' know, I haven't had a Trappist triple in a long time. Wonder are there any places here in Northern Ireland you can get that?

It's a bit of a poor show just having Magners and Pizza, when I read what all you guys are having.

Mind you, the food mixer has a 4 bit processor. Do you think the dough would be better if it had a 16 bit processor instead?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 04:20:37 pm by jonstewart »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 04:18:30 pm »

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My German friends like Coors.  Seriously.  They are mainly from the Luneberg Heath/North German Plane area, but still.  "Coors, its crip and refreshing.  From the Rockies!"  I'm usually shocked. 

I myself love the ambers and ales.  Abita is like a smoother, more "hopsie" if you will, version of New Castle, which I also like.  I have a soft spot for Louisiana products, and Abita is one of the best.  Dixie, on the other hand, is one of the worst.

I do like Bavarian beer, but the wheats.  I do not like lagers, and can obly tepidly support pilsners.

Sometimes I like King Kobra, mainly because of the Billy D commercials.  I'm also known to drink Old English on occassion, but only because I really really like Ice Cube.
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can anyone explain to me why i should work with a digital back if it only offers 3D,
meanwhile my much cheaper canon offers 5D. aside from its better iso performance?
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rainer viertlböck
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Mort54

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 04:20:44 pm »

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Mind you, the food fixer has a 4 bit processor. Do you think the dough would be better if it had a 16 bit processor instead?
It probably wouldn't be as lumpy - you know, with 16 bits, you'd get a smoother texture.
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MichaelEzra

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 04:21:17 pm »

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can anyone explain to me why i should work with a digital back if it only offers 3D,
meanwhile my much cheaper canon offers 5D. aside from its better iso performance?
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LOL!
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jonstewart

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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2008, 04:22:10 pm »

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can anyone explain to me why i should work with a digital back if it only offers 3D,
meanwhile my much cheaper canon offers 5D. aside from its better iso performance?
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I think you've had a little to much Bavarian doppelbock, Rainer!  
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TMARK

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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2008, 04:24:23 pm »

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can anyone explain to me why i should work with a digital back if it only offers 3D,
meanwhile my much cheaper canon offers 5D. aside from its better iso performance?
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Well, my Phase has a bottle opener.  I heard Sinarbacks have an adapter system such that you can add a bottle opener to any MF camera. The 5D really only has 2D, anyway, because 3 of the D of the 5D are wasted, empty calories.

And Jon, a 16 bit food processor would make a much more layed, textured dough that would stand up to more stretching once processed.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2008, 04:40:43 pm »

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Well, my Phase has a bottle opener.  I heard Sinarbacks have an adapter system such that you can add a bottle opener to any MF camera. The 5D really only has 2D, anyway, because 3 of the D of the 5D are wasted, empty calories.

And Jon, a 16 bit food processor would make a much more layed, textured dough that would stand up to more stretching once processed.
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no. the 5D has a certain 5D look. if you dont see it its not worth to discuss it with you.
sorry for that.
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dlew308

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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2008, 04:42:45 pm »

Imagine the look of the 40D......
8X the look of your 5D  

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no. the 5D has a certain 5D look. if you dont see it its not worth to discuss it with you.
sorry for that.
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Murray Fredericks

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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2008, 06:11:20 pm »

I wish our Australian beer makers adopted some of those fine European brewing techniques...

We do have good wine though.
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2008, 06:14:53 pm »

Some sobering facts

The "digital imaging expert" seems to understand of this subject about as much as most of the posters above, which is not much (if I am very generous).

Now perhaps it is time to consider some facts.

If and how far 16 bits are useful with MFDBs is a complicated matter, in most cases impossible to prove in either direction. I can prove on images of *certain* MFDBs, that there *is* a difference between 14bit and 16bit (slightly less noise in 16bit), but that proof shows, that the difference is *very, very tiny*, in fact it is useless.

The question needs to be adjusted a bit in order to become reasonable:

do MFDBs need greater bit depth than DSLRs?

When analysing for example Canon 1DsMkIII images, the same can be said: the difference between 12bit and 14bit is there, but very small (note: even so I am a proponent of 14bit recording).

When comparing 16bit, 14bit and 12bit images of a Sinar eM54, it can be shown, that reducing to 12bit does cause practical image degradation.

It is clear, that the larger dynamic range of some MFDBs *requires* more bits than a camera with 2 stops lower dynamic range.

However, the most sobering fact is, that the Phase One cameras' last two bits are not only useless, but they are *detrimental* to the image. Luckily, the raw processors don't make any use of those bits, except in extreme circumstances (that's what caused Edmund complain about striations with his P45+).

The following captures depict three segments of the image CF000841, shot by a Phase One P30+ by the fellow LL poster 203. The first one shows the original, with +3 1/2 EV. The second one shows the 15th bit only and the third one is created by the 16th bit only (i.e. the lowest order bit) . The next four captures show two other crops, with only the 15th respectively 16th bit.

The waves and horizontal strips are artifacts of the sensor, as is the vertical separation line, caused by the "stitching" of the sensor chips.

These captures demonstrate, that the two low order bits of Phase One raw files *must not* be used (this is not a speciality of the P30+, I saw teh same on the P25+ and P45+ as well). In other words: the 16 bit recording is worthless with these cameras.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 06:18:44 pm by Panopeeper »
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