The PhaseOne/Mamiya AFDIII review

[Guy Mancuso]

Thierry it is most likely built into the price of the back to begin with. Different companies handle these warranties in different ways. If Sinar wanted to offer a 1 year warranty would they not structure the price accordingly. Of course they would. OEM"s will market different and warranties will fall under that marketing blanket.

[dlew308]

When will AFDII prices go down?

[eronald]

If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.

The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.

I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.

There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.

Edmund

[thsinar]

Nope, you are wrong here Guy: it makes no sense, on a price level, to offer only 1 year of warranty and then reduce the price: what you "spare" is ridiculous, believe me.

It has always been Sinar's tradition to offer from the beginning such a warranty, as well as giving a guaranty of at least 10 years of servicing and repairs on all the Sinar products, including digital backs.

I find it somehow strange that one gets almost criticized to do so, almost making it sound like a marketing hype or making suggestions, in opposition to other approaches offering a standard 1 year warranty. I am sorry to say it, but US 3'000.- for 2 years extension seems the wrong approach to me, not the opposite. You may want to check this on different prices of different kits and systems, from the different manufacturers, but it won't give you the answer, respectively you won't be able to jump to such a conclusion by doing so, since you would need to know the export prices to do so precisely.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry it is most likely built into the price of the back to begin with. Different companies handle these warranties in different ways. If Sinar wanted to offer a 1 year warranty would they not structure the price accordingly. Of course they would. OEM"s will market different and warranties will fall under that marketing blanket.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[TMARK]

If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.

The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.

I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.

There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with you mostly.  I think having a camera that is as expensive as the Hy6 but not as good is a mistake.  I also think running head on against Hasselblad's integrated solution and marketing machine with a camera that is more expensive than the equivelent blad is a mistake.  The brand value just isn't there, although I think the quality is. I know that real prices people are paying are different, but because there is no transperancy in the MFDB world a half educated buyer sees that the Phase is more or less = to the blad, likes the blad's screen, the sync speed, the one battery, the one on/off switch, hyper focus etc.  I suspect that the AFD3/Phase cam is a few years old.  I suspect the next camera will be an all new deal, and may well be on par with the Hy6.  That camera might be worth the $5k - $8k.  

A question:  What do you mean by "damaging shots"?  

On Mamiya quality:  The new one is really really tight like a dslr but not as fast.  Looks and feels durable.  AF is accurate and reasonably fast.  My AFds feels old and worn, a little loose, but they still work and work (mostly) flawlessly.

Lenses:  I think Edmund is wrong in his assessment of the Mamiya lenses for fashion and their comparison to H lenses.  I find the 80mm 2.8 too sharp and contrasty for digital fashion/portrait/catalogue.  The 150mm is also a little too sharp.  The 55mm is the best lens they make, in my opinion, and on my P30+ is the normal lens.  The 45mm is smoother and only sharp after F4, but it shines as a wide portrait and fashion lens.  

As to the comparison to H lenses, well, the main difference is that most of the H lenses look better (read: sharper) wide open than their Mamiya counter parts.  They do look different, as the H lenses seem to try and replicate the microcontrast and hard contrast of CZ lenses, of which I'm not a huge fan.  Other Fujinon lenses are softer and have much better rendering for faces.  The H 100 2.2 is a great lens.  My favorite Mamiya lens is an 80 1.9 c lens, scratched and old.  It is magic, so creamy.

That being said, I LOVE my P30+.  I would say the results are in between drum scanned 6x7 and drum scanned 4x5, and yes with mamiya 645 lenses.  I like the FP shutter.  I use 1/4000 FAR more than I need to sync over 1/125. The new Phamiya is a step forward, and if you get it in a kit for a few grand or "free" its a great value.  I know this.  But the newbies who post to this forum every other day don't know anything other than the H3D2-31 has a big screen, is integrated like a DSLR, has a big viewfinder etc and is cheaper than the list price for a Phase Phamiya Cam and P30+, and the lenses are expensive, new.

[hubell]

$3,000 for the additional warranty time just seems outrageous.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When you stop to consider the economics here, the price is definitely unreasonable, but not surprising. If something goes wrong with the camera that Phase sells, who is going to fix it? Phase? No way, they don't make cameras or fix them. They have to return the camera to Mamiya and pay Mamiya to fix it, parts and labor and a profit margin thereon. Then, Phase has to factor its own costs into the equation. And Phase has no experience with the warranty track record of the AFDIII. They don't even have a warranty track record with the AFDII. So, they have to be fairly careful with how they price the extended warranty, because Mamiya is probably only giving Phase a one year warranty on the cameras it buys from Mamiya.
BTW, isn't the 3 year warranty on Phase backs an extra $3,000?

[eronald]

Lenses:  I think Edmund is wrong in his assessment of the Mamiya lenses for fashion and their comparison to H lenses.  I find the 80mm 2.8 too sharp and contrasty for digital fashion/portrait/catalogue.  The 150mm is also a little too sharp.  The 55mm is the best lens they make, in my opinion, and on my P30+ is the normal lens.  The 45mm is smoother and only sharp after F4, but it shines as a wide portrait and fashion lens. 

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I find the big problem to be the non-circular aperture on the 80 which leaves hard-edged flare marks over my best images. I think I see a Sinar in my future - or maybe just a Contax

Edmund

[Jack Flesher]

Edmund, you must have a really poor set of Mamiya glass, or more likely a defective body or back not in alignment.

I also shoot a P45+ on a Mamiya and have none of the issues you have. Moreover my experience mirrors TMark's as respects the 45, 55, 80 and 150.  I can only add that the 210 is a laser even wide open, being almost brutal on skin.  The 35 may leave a little bit to be desired, never as good as the 55 and soft-ish corners, but even using that lens for landscape I get very nice, sharp appearing prints...

Cheers,

[Guy Mancuso]

Nope, you are wrong here Guy: it makes no sense, on a price level, to offer only 1 year of warranty and then reduce the price: what you "spare" is ridiculous, believe me.

It has always been Sinar's tradition to offer from the beginning such a warranty, as well as giving a guaranty of at least 10 years of servicing and repairs on all the Sinar products, including digital backs.

I find it somehow strange that one gets almost criticized to do so, almost making it sound like a marketing hype or making suggestions, in opposition to other approaches offering a standard 1 year warranty. I am sorry to say it, but US 3'000.- for 2 years extension seems the wrong approach to me, not the opposite. You may want to check this on different prices of different kits and systems, from the different manufacturers, but it won't give you the answer, respectively you won't be able to jump to such a conclusion by doing so, since you would need to know the export prices to do so precisely.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204858\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.

[James R Russell]

I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.

If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?

Let's do it this way.

Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________

Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________


Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6  body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________

Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150  How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________

All U.S. prices.

________________________________________________________________________

Now one other question.

Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and  will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Phocus, when will it be released in full and  it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.



JR

[amsp]

If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.

The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.

I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.

There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, but you're really way off the mark here eronald. Mamiya is in no way a "volkswagen", they have a reputation among pros for making high quality rock solid gear that just works and works, and this is my own experience too. As for the glass almost all are tack sharp and have a great color and contrast rendition, my 80mm is no exception there. No offense but you seem to have a lot of "unique" problems with a whole lot of your gear, and like to make blanket statements based on it.

[thsinar]

Guy,

Please don't distort what I have written: I did say nowhere that we don't calculate the costs of warranty and integrated them in a way or another. Of course we do.

What I was saying is that it makes absolutely no financial sense (for us and the customer) to offer a 1-year warranty instead of our standard 3-year and reduce the price consequently. Consequently meaning here US 3'000.-
The "saved" money by doing so is FAR LESS and would be of no benefit for the enduser.

it happens that this was exactly a proposal I made myself a few years back. Very precise calculations have then been made and the conclusion was the one you have read in my previous post, that it makes absolutely no sense.
This concerns Sinar and I don't pretend to speak for others.

Best regards,
Thierry

I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Snook]

Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.

If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?

Let's do it this way.

Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________

Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________
Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6  body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________

Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150  How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________

All U.S. prices.

________________________________________________________________________

Now one other question.

Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and  will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Phocus, when will it be released in full and  it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This would be very interesting to see stright up.. good idea..
The problem, I think, is you never really get the final price with a lot of the dealers..
They can drop quite a bit from the "retail" price... but that should not vary more than a couple thousand here or there.
Some one please post all these options , would be great to see.
Snook

[samuel_js]

Is this worth $ 3000?

Permit my comments on the "Value Added Warranty Kit".

    * 3-Year Replacement Loaner International Warranty. Nice but free with Sinar
    * 3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee. Great because after buying my brand new PhaseOne camera I could change my mind and switch to...  ?
    * Metallic Case. The pelican case is more than good.
    * Capture One Pro. Just for 35mm compatibility?
    * Dual-Bay battery charger (Included with standard warranty)
    * Two 2500 mAh batteries (Included with standard warranty)
    * Viewfinder masks (5 pcs) (Included with standard warranty)
    * 4.5m Firewire Cable (Included with standard warranty)
    * DigiClean kit (Included with standard warranty)
    * SanDisk 2-gig Extreme IV CF card (Inexpensive)
    * SanDisk Firewire 800 card reader (Inexpensive)
    * Multiconnector sync cable.
    * Multiconnector > Minijack adapter cable
    * Manual hard-copy  
    * LCC calibration kit.
    * 5 pcs QP greycard.
    * Microfiber cloth.  


...  

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Edmund, you must have a really poor set of Mamiya glass, or more likely a defective body or back not in alignment.

I also shoot a P45+ on a Mamiya and have none of the issues you have. Moreover my experience mirrors TMark's as respects the 45, 55, 80 and 150.  I can only add that the 210 is a laser even wide open, being almost brutal on skin.  The 35 may leave a little bit to be desired, never as good as the 55 and soft-ish corners, but even using that lens for landscape I get very nice, sharp appearing prints...

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree. I've owned Hassy and Rollei 6008 glass and the new Mamiya lenses need take a back seat to no-one. The 75-150 and the 12O "'D" are razors. I can't wait for my 45-90 due, I'm told, in August.
Bill

[mcfoto]

Hi
I don't see the big deal about what Phase One is offering. For an extra two years you pay $3000.00 & its your choice. I would rather put that money into a 2nd body or buy an AFDII + a lens on eBay for that price. You can get an AFDII body on eBay for $2100.00 USD. To me a 2nd body is the best backup you can have on a shoot.
Denis

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree it is a choice , I did not buy it and put the money elsewhere. I like choices and options to fill my needs. The savings pretty much bought all my lenses used and honestly I am a lens whore , these do not take a back seat to anything I have seen in MF so far and if there is a difference it is pretty slight.

[Jack Flesher]

Re the extended warranty, I agree it's nice to have the option.  I did not buy it either for the simple reason I will likely upgrade within the year and would rather put the money toward the upgrade

[elitegroup]

Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.

If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?

Let's do it this way.

Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________

Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________
Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6  body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________

Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150  How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________

All U.S. prices.

________________________________________________________________________

Now one other question.

Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and  will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

Phocus, when will it be released in full and  it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.

This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I third this request, please post price/details here  

[Neil Fitzgerald]

I've lurked here a long time - as I someday hope to own a medium format system - for now I make do with what I have and learn what I can. With a little internet searching you can find list pricing info.

Phaseone System USA List Pricing   
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/   
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens -   $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens -   $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens -   $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera)   n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens -   $1189
Total for Lenses -   $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty -   $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty -   $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses -   $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses -   $31646
   
Leaf System USA List Pricing   
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html   
40mm -    $5549
50mm -   $5150
80mm -   $3100
180mm -   $6920
Total for Lenses -   $20719
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) -   $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses -   $46714
   
Sinar System USA List Pricing   
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ , [url=http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386][a href=\"http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386\" target=\"_blank\"]http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386[/url][/a] and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html
40mm - $5549   
50mm -   $5150
80mm -   $3100
180mm -   $6920
Total for Lenses -   $20719
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty -   $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses -   $51219
   
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing   
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/   
35mm -   $3440
50mm -   $3155
80mm (included with camera)   n/a
150mm -   $3100
Total for Lenses -   $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) -   $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses -   $27690

Edited to add Sinar/Leaf 40mm pricing (thanks to Paul Jones' reply)