Camera advice for landscapes? Need tilt.

[parasko]

Hi all,

I need to buy a camera solely for landscape work and I'm contemplating whether to go for film or digital. I will be printing initially at 16x20 (but with a plan to print (slightly) larger down the track).

Digital:
My preference is for a digital camera and the Canon 1ds Mk III seems my best option at this point in time. Digital is more convenient and portable. But I do want quality lenses with the option of tilt.

What options do I have re: tilt lenses in the focal lengths: 24mm, 50mm and 70-80mm.

I tried the Canon 24mm tse lens with my previously owned 1ds MkI and I did not think this was a great quality lens. I have heard the Canon's 45mm and 90mm tilt/shift lenses are better performers. Does anyone use these lenses on the MkIII who can comment?

Is anyone using the new Nikon 24mm tilt on the 1ds with good results? Any other third party options, especially at the wide end 20-24mm (as this is usually my main focal length)?

Film:
I have 3 Rodenstock lenses which I purchased with a cheap 4x5 (Tachihara). I found the movements on the Tachi sloppy so I sold it but I still have the remaining 4x5 gear so there is the option of buying a pro 4x5: an Arca Swiss Field.
Scanner options for 4x5 is expensive though and outsourcing drum scans is too expensive (I don't like the quality of consumer flatbeds (just my opinion)). I also plan to shoot some colour so it is expensive to outsource 4X5 slide processing. But I do have a Nikon 9000 so there is an option to shoot only 6x9 with a rollfilm holder attached to the 4x5.

What advice, comments or guidance can any of you give me and can you comment on your own landscape setup.

Any help much appreciated.

Cheers.

[Marlyn]

I recently agonised over exactly this problem, and ended up choosing the 1DsMKIII with the canon TS-E lenses.

I used the 24mm on the 5D for a while, adn that was good, however after some testing, I've settled on the 90mm TS-E for most work with the 1DsIII.  This is based on doing stitching, both recalinear with just the TS lens (left, middle, right etc),  and doing spherical pano's, using Shift to either position the shot correctly, or do multi row.

Some initial tests show that it will do the job just fine.  

I find the live view and 10x zoom on the Mk III to be excellent for focusing the TS-E lens correctly, even when using Tilt.


I also shoot 4x5 or 6x12, on a Toyo 45CF, and expect the 1DS3 and stitching to effectivley replace this for landscape work.

PS: Yes I know its not a P45+, but its also not $50k!

Regards

Mark.

[BernardLanguillier]

Digital:
My preference is for a digital camera and the Canon 1ds Mk III seems my best option at this point in time. Digital is more convenient and portable. But I do want quality lenses with the option of tilt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would wait a few weeks if I were you.

Both Sony and Nikon are rumoured to be about to launch 24MP flag ship models that should, together with their best in class wide lenses, pretty much put an end to Canon's dominance as far as best 35 mm image quality is concerned.

Other valid options are also to invest into a Mamiya ZD back, or into a second hand Phaseone P25 or Aptus 22.

Either way, I would personnally not invest in a 1ds3 now.

Considering the power of stitching I would definitely not go the film route at this point of time.

Cheers,
Bernard

[parasko]

I do remember reading someone using a tilt/shift adaptor and medium format lenses on 35mm digital. Does anyone know anything about this?

I couldn't afford a MF back at this stage...they are still slightly more expensive than the 1dsIII, which is already breaking my budget!

re: Nikon/ Sony update, isn't the Nikon rumour just a rumour?

[BernardLanguillier]

I couldn't afford a MF back at this stage...they are still slightly more expensive than the 1dsIII, which is already breaking my budget!
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The ZD back can be had for 7000 US$ from B&H below:

[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/502707-REG/Mamiya_310_110_ZD_Digital_Camera_Back.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5027...amera_Back.html[/url]

I have been shooting with a ZD for 2 years and the image quality is outstanding. It does have some limitations in terms of long exposures, etc... though.

re: Nikon/ Sony update, isn't the Nikon rumour just a rumour?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is indeed just a rumour, but the rumour makes so much sense, and has been reported by so many players not refering to the same information source that its degree of probability is close to 90% IMHO.

As far as the Sony goes, the only unknown is whether it will be available for sales in June or September.

Cheers,
Bernard

[jeffok]

I would wait a few weeks if I were you.

Both Sony and Nikon are rumoured to be about to launch 24MP flag ship models that should, together with their best in class wide lenses, pretty much put an end to Canon's dominance as far as best 35 mm image quality is concerned.

Other valid options are also to invest into a Mamiya ZD back, or into a second hand Phaseone P25 or Aptus 22.

Either way, I would personnally not invest in a 1ds3 now.

Considering the power of stitching I would definitely not go the film route at this point of time.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard, you didn't answer this fellows question. He wants a proven system with a quality range of tilt lens capabilities. Not sometime in the future but now.

Parasko, the answer is that Canon already has 3 tilt-shift lenses in the ranges you mention while neither Nikon nor Sony do. Simple fact. There is a 24, 45 and 90 available, today. The 24 is a bit soft, the 45 and 90 are tack sharp. Nikon only has a 24  and its very pricey. With these and using shift, you will be able to create stunning and detailed stitched images rivaling anything from medium format or even large format. I do this myself with the 1Ds3 and there are many others on this forum doing the same.

Or, you can wait like some recommend and maybe something will appear to compare with this system in a few years, but it seems you're more interested in making images today. Stay away from the Mamiya backs and camera if you ever want quality images over 400 ISO. It will be a long while before Sony really breaks into the pro market with their camera system which has a long way to go, IMHO. Good camera systems are just that- a system proven over decades of use- and not just the camera. A camera the system does not make, no matter how many megapixels.

[JeffKohn]

Parasko, the answer is that Canon already has 3 tilt-shift lenses in the ranges you mention while neither Nikon nor Sony do. Simple fact. There is a 24, 45 and 90 available, today. The 24 is a bit soft, the 45 and 90 are tack sharp. Nikon only has a 24 and its very pricey.

Nikon also has an 85mm PC Micro with tilt/shift that is an excellent lens. And the 45mm PC-E and updated 85mm PC-E have already been officially confirmed by Nikon as coming this year, so it's not a matter of rumors/speculation.

[DavidRees]

If MF film is a possibility, you could take a look at the Rollei SL66 6x6 camera, or the Fuji 680 (6x8). The former offers tilt on all lenses, and is considerably smaller than the Fuji (by way of compensation, you have tilt, shift and swing available with the Fuji).

Both only available 2nd-hand, but that means they are likely to be cheaper than a 1DSIII.

Personal bias: I use a Fuji 680III with 7 lenses as my main landscape kit (total cost 1/2 of a 1DSIII); images scanned with my Nikon 8000ED offer plenty of pixels for prints in the size range you are targeting -- in fact, you are likely to have to down-res at some point in your workflow.

I personally would not recommend 6x9 backs on a 5x4 -- I've used them, but never been able to get the resulting images as sharp as I wanted. Might be my eyes, might be my technique, but the fact remains that the images were soft compared to those taken by the Fuji.

I also use the 3 Canon TS-E lenses, but not with a 1DSIII; the 24mm is OK, and the other two are good or better. I would strongly recommend you alter the axis of shift for landscape work; I find it offers far more utility than the standard configuration (note that  this advice only applies if you are NOT stitching).

[Marlyn]

My 90mm TS-E arrived today and from a very quick test in the office, it appears excellent.  Will take it out on the weekend to test properly.

This is on a 1DS-III

[BernardLanguillier]

Parasko, the answer is that Canon already has 3 tilt-shift lenses in the ranges you mention while neither Nikon nor Sony do. Simple fact. There is a 24, 45 and 90 available, today. The 24 is a bit soft, the 45 and 90 are tack sharp. Nikon only has a 24  and its very pricey.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199320\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Can you swear to me that the price gap between the Canon 24 T/S and the Nikon 24 T/S is larger than the price gap between the 1ds3 and the coming Nikon flag ship?

Or, you can wait like some recommend and maybe something will appear to compare with this system in a few years, but it seems you're more interested in making images today. Stay away from the Mamiya backs and camera if you ever want quality images over 400 ISO. It will be a long while before Sony really breaks into the pro market with their camera system which has a long way to go, IMHO. Good camera systems are just that- a system proven over decades of use- and not just the camera. A camera the system does not make, no matter how many megapixels.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199320\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We are talking about a few months at most.

Besides, the real question is whether T/S lenses are still relevant for landscape or not. I have found both stitching softwares and Helicon Focus to be briliant at getting infinite DoF without the limitations and constraints of T/S lenses. 2 examples below:

1. 100+ Mega pixel panorama



2. Single image with Helicon Focus



As far as Mamiya goes, you are correct, high ISO image quality is poor, but this mostly isn't an  issue for landscape work, right?

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Personal bias: I use a Fuji 680III with 7 lenses as my main landscape kit (total cost 1/2 of a 1DSIII); images scanned with my Nikon 8000ED offer plenty of pixels for prints in the size range you are targeting -- in fact, you are likely to have to down-res at some point in your workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Many pixels indeed, but I have never managed to get real sharp looking scans with my previous Coolscan 9000, whatever the holder used...

My personnal rule of thumb is that you need to devide the pixel number of a film scanner scan by at least 5 to get the number of pixels you need from a digital camera in order to get the same amount of real detail (at least compared to DSLR with no or weak AA filters). This takes a 6x6 scan to about 20MP.

Scans from my Imacon are much better, but still, a factor of at least 2 applies.

So yes, a good scan of a 6x8 image contains probably a little more detail than a single capture from a 1ds3, but they are in the same ballpark. How much you shoot will of course matter, but don't forget to factor in film costs and gear obsolescence if you intend to go that route.

Cheers,
Bernard

[parasko]

Great responses from you all. Thanks.

For practical purposes (especially re: air travel) and portability I'm convinced that digital is the way to go. So now I will have to decide whether to buy the 1ds III or a digital back like the ZD.

Bernard, can you enlighten me on your comment:

Besides, the real question is whether T/S lenses are still relevant for landscape or not. I have found both stitching softwares and Helicon Focus to be briliant at getting infinite DoF without the limitations and constraints of T/S lenses.

I don't know much about stitching with digital gear so I may have to do some reading. Are you saying that with stitching + Helicon Focus software, you are able to achieve enough dof for landscape shots, which eliminates the need for a tilt lens?

How practical is digital stitching and using this software in the real world....picture the Australian outback..hot...damn hot...flies...lots of flies. How much slower is this method of working in comparison to using tilt lenses on a digital body?

In light of the landscape scenario above, how convenient is a digital back like the ZD. Isn't the 1dsIII just more practical for such conditions?

As an aside, any advice on 3rd party lenses if I go the 1ds route?
Has anyone used the 21mm Zeiss distagon for stitching? This lens has significant distortion. How do you deal with this when stitching? Any other Zeiss lenses recommended?

Apologies for so many questions. This is a big investment for me so I need as much information as possible before I leap.

Cheers.

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, can you enlighten me on your comment:
I don't know much about stitching with digital gear so I may have to do some reading. Are you saying that with stitching + Helicon Focus software, you are able to achieve enough dof for landscape shots, which eliminates the need for a tilt lens?

How practical is digital stitching and using this software in the real world....picture the Australian outback..hot...damn hot...flies...lots of flies. How much slower is this method of working in comparison to using tilt lenses on a digital body?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We are speaking about 2 different techniques:

1. Stitching. When doing multi-row stitching you can change the point of focus from one row to the next, which - when done carefully - can result in virtually infinite DoF as long as the foreground is not super close.

2. DoF stacking. With this technique, you take a number of shots from the same point with different focus points.

If you have subjects that don't move with the wind too much, then this is really easy to use. When you have subject movement, it might require more work.

It does of course slow down the shooting, but then again setting up a T/S lens isn't super fast either.

I believe that T/S lenses can still be useful in some cases, but as of now my assessement is that digital manipulations are more bang for the bucks for my type of shooting.

In light of the landscape scenario above, how convenient is a digital back like the ZD. Isn't the 1dsIII just more practical for such conditions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The main problem with the ZD is cold weather because of the battery life, and long exposures. If you shoot in hot weather you will have no problem with the batteries, you might want to double check how the sensor works when it is very hot since I have never used my ZD above 35 C.

Otherwise, a 1ds3 is of course much faster to use and has a much nicer user interface than the ZD, more options in terms lenses (even if Canon wides are only average performers), etc...

It depends whether you prioritie absoluet image quality or convenience.

Cheers,
Bernard

[KevinA]

Great responses from you all. Thanks.

For practical purposes (especially re: air travel) and portability I'm convinced that digital is the way to go. So now I will have to decide whether to buy the 1ds III or a digital back like the ZD.

Bernard, can you enlighten me on your comment:
I don't know much about stitching with digital gear so I may have to do some reading. Are you saying that with stitching + Helicon Focus software, you are able to achieve enough dof for landscape shots, which eliminates the need for a tilt lens?

How practical is digital stitching and using this software in the real world....picture the Australian outback..hot...damn hot...flies...lots of flies. How much slower is this method of working in comparison to using tilt lenses on a digital body?

In light of the landscape scenario above, how convenient is a digital back like the ZD. Isn't the 1dsIII just more practical for such conditions?

As an aside, any advice on 3rd party lenses if I go the 1ds route?
Has anyone used the 21mm Zeiss distagon for stitching? This lens has significant distortion. How do you deal with this when stitching? Any other Zeiss lenses recommended?

Apologies for so many questions. This is a big investment for me so I need as much information as possible before I leap.

Cheers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For the small increase in quality in a few situations you get with the ZD over the Canon I would not spend money on it. If your subjects can be shot in sections to stitch the 1DsmkIII will be excellent, if not a refurb MF back could be viable. The ZD should of been on a mkII version by now to sought out it's limitations.
The 1DsmkIII is proving to be much better than I thought it would be. I doubt a new Nikon or Sony will be much better if any better.
Kevin.

[mcbroomf]

I use the 90mm TSE and like others can confirm it's an excellent lens.  I sold the 24mm and 45mm versions as I was not happy with either.  For wide I ended up with an EOS converted 35mm Canon TS lens (originally FD) which is very good.

I don't think it was mentioned here but the new Nikon 24mm TS lens CANNOT BE USED ON A CANON.  It requires an electrical signal from the body to operate the aperture, and this is lost with the addition of  the Nikon/EOS adapter.  There is discussion on FM.  I suggest you check those threads out.

MIREX offer a tilt adapter that can be used on Mamiya lenses (and Hasselblad maybe?), but I'm not sure it's possible to use them on anything below 35mm.

Zoerk offer a tilt-only conversion of the 28mm PC Super Angulon...at a price, $1k + the cost of the lens, and they will only convert new lenses.

Mike

[parasko]

So from comments above and more recent posts I've read, it seems that most people are using 28-90mm focal lengths for stitching. Is this because there is only a limited number of quality lenses at the wide end such as the 21mm distagon?

Which lenses would be better for stitching...Zeiss or Leica R? The only Canon lenses I probably would buy again are the 50mm 2.5 macro and the 135mm.

I note that the 1ds II has now come down in price so this may be an option for me in order to buy glass.

What do you think?

[mcbroomf]

I have the 21mm Distagon but I still stitch, either to go wider (FOV) or to get more detail in a long panorama that the sensor could hold in a single wide shot.  I probably use my 35-70 Vario Sonnar more than most of my other lenses, although I've stitched with my 135L and 90mm TSE (with fixed shifts, ie I just wanted to use a 90mm lens).

[BernardLanguillier]

So from comments above and more recent posts I've read, it seems that most people are using 28-90mm focal lengths for stitching. Is this because there is only a limited number of quality lenses at the wide end such as the 21mm distagon?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=199554\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quality wides exist in the Nikon world, but I still mostly stitch with longer lenses, the main reasons:

1. It is impossible to use some projection modes with wide lenses because of geometrical limitations,

2. One of the goals of stitching is to increase the pixel count, and this is better achieved with longer lenses,

3. Wides tend to suffer from light fall off, especially so on FF sensors, and light fall off is IMHO the #1 ennemy when stitching.

This being said, there are of course also cases when shooting wide makes sense.

Cheers,
Bernard