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Author Topic: This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range  (Read 16126 times)

Andy M

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« on: May 29, 2008, 04:27:16 am »

"This is a single raw file from the Fuji S5 Pro. On the left is the original raw file and on the right is the modified photo dropped down by 4 stops. The photo isnt perfect, but is still impressive."


From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/13647884@N03/2517564374/

The RAW (25mb) is available to play with here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6534vl

According to DPreview the dynamic range of each of the following camera is:

Nikon D3 (ISO 200) 8.6 EV
Nikon D300 (ISO 200) 8.8 EV
Canon EOS 5D (ISO 100) 8.2 EV
Canon EOS 1DS Mk3 (ISO 100) 8.6 EV
Fuji S5 Pro (IS0 100/200) 11.8 EV

I had a quick play myself and came up with:



Neither my 1Ds 3 or 5D would have produced files which could be rescued in such a way.
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dwdallam

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2008, 05:00:01 am »

That's incredible.

11.8? How can it be that much better than Canon's flagship? I'm wondering what the trade-off is? I'm sure Canon could have done the same thing.

First WB becomes less of an issue, or a non issue for many applications, now exposure too?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 05:08:36 am by dwdallam »
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francois

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 05:11:48 am »

Quote
That's incredible.

11.8? How can it be that much better than Canon's flagship? I'm wondering what the trade-off is? I'm sure Canon could have done the same thing.

Is this the start of exposure no longer being any real deal? As long as you over expose a couple stops, no problem? This would also help low light situations where you can expose to the left and gain shutter speeds too.

First WB becomes less of an issue, or a non issue for many applications, now exposure too? 

Pretty soon cameras won't have any settings on them except a slider for more or less depth of field.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Fuji S5 sensor is different. You can read more about its design [a href=\"http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n030122.html]here[/url]. Resolution is also limited to about 6 MP.

Edit: Michael did a review of the S3 here.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 05:13:07 am by francois »
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Francois

dwdallam

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2008, 05:17:05 am »

Quote
The Fuji S5 sensor is different. You can read more about its design here. Resolution is also limited to about 6 MP.

Edit: Michael did a review of the S3 here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198695\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm reading about it now. It's a Nikon camera with a Fuji sensor I guess. Specialty camera for some things I would suspect.
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alba63

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 05:42:21 am »

Quote
I'm reading about it now. It's a Nikon camera with a Fuji sensor I guess. Specialty camera for some things I would suspect.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, as a year long user of Fuji DSLRs (currently Fuji S3 and S5 pro) I can say that after 2 years I sold my Canon 5d. While file sharpness and fine detail in the Canon was clearly better/ sharper than in the Fujis, general IQ in the S3 pro and the S5 is simply outstanding. SOme think that high DR is a specific feature that you may only need sometimes, but in fact I found that it shows in each and every picture, the distribution of tones and the film like, color if I may say, deliver wonderfully natural and yet photogenic photographs frame per frame.

I totally agree that Fuji would need to bring a camera with higher resolution, like true 12 or at least 10MP, but what the S3/ S5 (which basically has the same sensor as S3, just different file processing and a Nikon d200 body instead of the older F80 based body)  deliver is very very attractive.

The price for the dual pixel sensor approach is speed by the way. Internal file processing is slow compared to the competition, even in the S5. I personally do not need speed, so I do not care really. For a working pro this may be different...

A pic like this:
[a href=\"http://lh5.ggpht.com/BeSchue/SDkXYwvM9OI/AAAAAAAAASw/D7JBmaDFSjs/St%20Pauls.jpg?imgmax=576]http://lh5.ggpht.com/BeSchue/SDkXYwvM9OI/A....jpg?imgmax=576[/url]
 was captured in JPEG, I know that my old EOS 5d would have blown the highlights on this one, the S3pro hadn't even reached it's full range.

regards,
bernie
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Plekto

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 02:29:57 pm »

The Fuji sensor is, IMO, more proof that a typical Bayer design is antuquated and needs to be replaced.  By what, I don't know... But more manufacturers need to start looking at other methods.

The Fuji does give closer to film results in terms of shoulder and dynamic range.  The prints look far more realistic, and if they would put it in a P&S camera, they would dominate the market once word got out - because blown out and bad contrast are the two most common problems for P&S cameras in the hands of a typical consumer/user.

The Fuji also does in camera blending, so you get the effects of blending for noise reduction as well.  Just no need to bracket/take two shots, since it take both shots at the same time.   This also is part of why it looks so clean, IMO.  They rely on blending instead of purely software to do noise reduction.

The Foveon/Sigma also tries a different approach.  And, IMO, it looks the best of all of them in terms of creating a smooth and realistic image.  

But both are too low resolution to really replace good film.  I've been waiting for the next generation of both technologies for the last couple of years and so far, not one word of when either company will get their act together.

A 12MP Fuji, for instance, would be ideal.  So would a true 12MP Foveon sensor.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 02:32:35 pm by Plekto »
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BJL

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2008, 04:54:34 pm »

Quote
The Fuji sensor is, IMO, more proof that a typical Bayer design is antuquated and needs to be replaced.
...
A 12MP Fuji, for instance, would be ideal.  So would a true 12MP Foveon sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fuji SR sensors still uses a color filter array much like the standard Bayer CFA, and is nothing like Foveon X3 sensors. The Fuji SR difference is in a completely different direction: changing the photosite design behind the CFA to increase the highlight headroom. (Another distinction is having only 6 million photosites on the sensor, making them bigger than almost any other photosites on the market today, almost 5D or D3 sized.)

I am curious if this or other highlight headroom expansion technologies will become more widespread; I have read of alternatives to Fuji's approach, used in security cameras and such.
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jjj

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 05:57:02 pm »

Quote
A pic like this:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/BeSchue/SDkXYwvM9OI/A....jpg?imgmax=576
 was captured in JPEG, I know that my old EOS 5d would have blown the highlights on this one, the S3pro hadn't even reached it's full range.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's very impresive.
Shame the resolution is too low for most pro work and the sensor not being full frame either is no good for me. What's the high speed quality like?
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Plekto

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2008, 03:32:27 pm »

Quote
Fuji SR sensors still uses a color filter array much like the standard Bayer CFA, and is nothing like Foveon X3 sensors. The Fuji SR difference is in a completely different direction: changing the photosite design behind the CFA to increase the highlight headroom. (Another distinction is having only 6 million photosites on the sensor, making them bigger than almost any other photosites on the market today, almost 5D or D3 sized.)

I know this.   If you look at the discussion on this forum about "Zero Noise Software" - blending from bracketed shots gets rid of almost all of the artifacts and problems of a Bayer sensor.   What the Fuji does is to take two shots at the same time 4 stops apart and blend them.  Just all on the same sensor/at the same instant.   In-camera perfect timing/alignment bracketing and blending.  No tripod, no being limited to perfectly still scenery or interiors...

Also, as you pointed, out, the interleaved array of 6MP and 6MP on top of each other makes for much less points of data being needed to create a full color location(works like a "fatter" pixel at each location as a result.  Also, the layout is a hexagonal pattern, so it has less problems with moires.  


Not a Bayer pattern, even.  Or even Bayer shaped pixels.  Fuji realized that the Bayer pattern was creating far more problems than it solved, so they decided to try to find a better solution.  That's why it really deserves to be in its own category like the Foveon.

*edit*
Half of the problem with Bayer pixels is their being square.  This makes for easy manufacturing, but it leads to most of the problems as well, since most everything in printing and viewing photos works on round/circles. (round dot of ink, round lenses, round...)  Octagonal is a far smarter design, even by itself.(standard HR sensor above)

The camera as a result has very clean and film-like qualities as far as color and contrast are concerned.  Like the Foveon sensor, it looks "good" and not digital.  Sure, it's not going to win resolution contests, but it does quite well, as it produces very clean results.  Most people want clean and consistent images more than ultra-sharp ones if they have to chose.  This is why ISO 100 and 50 film still sells incredibly well.  It's soft and very fine-grained, but has a gorgeous look to it.

The output from a Canon, by comparison, looks crisp and kind of harsh.  At least, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 04:01:19 pm by Plekto »
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Hank

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2008, 03:51:04 pm »

Quote
That's incredible.

I'm wondering what the trade-off is? I'm sure Canon could have done the same thing.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=198694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's easy.  As already noted the internal processing speed is slooooooooooooow.  Add in the miniscule buffer, and in our hands neither the S3 nor the S5 were useable outside the studio, and even in that controlled setting were often too slow for quick followup shots.  They were hopeless in the field or especially in their intended role in our wedding shoots.

We dumped them all.  Love the sensor, but HATE the camera.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 03:53:13 pm by Hank »
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Plekto

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2008, 04:04:23 pm »

^^^^
Correct.

Which is why I'm waiting for the next generation from Foveon/Sigma and Fuji to see what they do to improve things.
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jjj

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2008, 04:33:06 pm »

If the DP1 is anything to go by, I don't have much hope with Sigma doing anything special.
The DP1 produces very nice images by all accounts, albeit very, very slowly.  Too slowly, it seems.
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Guillermo Luijk

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 08:24:56 am »

I have developed the sample RAW file, and it seems confirmed the reason why some Fuji users have reported magenta cast in the very high lights with some RAF files: the R sensor in the Fuij Super CCD seems to have some non-linear behaviour in the last f-stop of the DR.

The RAW file had no levels blown, I used a correct saturation point. I applied a strict camera white balance in the whole DR with DCRAW (-H 1). Other programs such as ACR/LR force a neutral WB in the highlights, that's why probably the user's render does not show this issue because I get the same result with DCRAW's -H 2.

While most of the image is right, the highlights (see window's floor and border) were not properly balanced appearing magenta cast:






There is a clear misalignment between the RGB channels in the last f-stops which according to the scene should be close to neutral (R=G=B ). In particular there is a lack of G values:




The conclusion is that it is recommended not to take Super CCD to its limits or problems may arise when using certain RAW developers (such as Fuji HU).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 08:25:56 am by GLuijk »
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Craig Murphy

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 10:22:01 am »

I know rumors are not liked on this forum but I just caught wind that Fuji is going to discontinue making professional cameras.  Has anyone else heard this?  My apologies if this turns out to be untrue.
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CMurph

Hank

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This Impressed Me: Fuji S5 Pro's Dynamic Range
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 10:50:14 am »

It makes sense, but I haven't heard anything.  But then again, we thoroughly severed our ties with Fuji.  If they can't put that great sensor on a professional body, they'll continue to have problems attracting much of a professional following.  Put it on a D2 or D3 body with accompanying large buffer and fast processing speed, and we'd probably own 4 of them right now.  But tha'ts been their problem hasn't it.  They can't get at the top-end Nikon bodies for building their own.
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