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Author Topic: New Epson Printers  (Read 153114 times)

Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2008, 03:39:22 am »

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Ernst - you no longer need to lower the front cover to provide a support for loading the cut sheet - it's more automated due to the lack of a manual paper lever and such.  Frankly, loading cut sheet on the 7900/9900 is easier and more intuitive than previous models - for a large format, it's pretty good really.

Would have been ideal to have a cut sheet guide of some sort rather than aligning manually but even that is a reasonably easy task.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did understand that but I am a bit sceptic about the precision of the sheet loading for small and large sheets. Could be wrong about that.

After some double sided print jobs I'm interested in any machine that gives better registration. Either printing dual sided on the roll or on sheets or a hybrid of both. On the Z3100 I could do it quite well now by running one side printing from the roll and have the printer cut per sheet. Roll 63 cm wide and cut at 45 cm lengths and then feeding the sheets again after a cut at one vertical side so the printer edge sensor places the print horizontally right.

Has this double sided registration been addressed in the 7900 and 9900 as they are more directed to proofing ?  

Seen several solutions on the Drupa for double sided proof printing on wide formats but none that really could make the registration. One company had two 7800s or 7600s stacked vertically (one turned 180 degrees) and a stainless steel ramp to guide the paper between the two printers. On the Océ booth a wide format had an extra roll spindle that allowed to unroll an already printed roll in the right way for the second print run but registration was lousy. There is Techsage's SpinJet for the older HP models but no follow up for recent models (harder to add a device like that too).
Not that they were that reliable. VersoJet is another option for the same printer models.

Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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yannb

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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2008, 06:28:47 pm »

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I did understand that but I am a bit sceptic about the precision of the sheet loading for small and large sheets. Could be wrong about that.

After some double sided print jobs I'm interested in any machine that gives better registration. Either printing dual sided on the roll or on sheets or a hybrid of both. On the Z3100 I could do it quite well now by running one side printing from the roll and have the printer cut per sheet. Roll 63 cm wide and cut at 45 cm lengths and then feeding the sheets again after a cut at one vertical side so the printer edge sensor places the print horizontally right.

Has this double sided registration been addressed in the 7900 and 9900 as they are more directed to proofing ? 

Seen several solutions on the Drupa for double sided proof printing on wide formats but none that really could make the registration. One company had two 7800s or 7600s stacked vertically (one turned 180 degrees) and a stainless steel ramp to guide the paper between the two printers. On the Océ booth a wide format had an extra roll spindle that allowed to unroll an already printed roll in the right way for the second print run but registration was lousy. There is Techsage's SpinJet for the older HP models but no follow up for recent models (harder to add a device like that too).
Not that they were that reliable. VersoJet is another option for the same printer models.

Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you're looking for professional double sided printing, then maybe consider Agfa's Grand Sherpamatic:
[a href=\"http://www.agfa.com/en/gs/products_services/all_products/grandsherpamatic.jsp]http://www.agfa.com/en/gs/products_service...sherpamatic.jsp[/url]

It's not cheap, I tell you...

Regards,
Yann
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Farmer

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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2008, 11:49:38 pm »

Ernst - no, there's no specific assistance to help with double-sided printing and correct registration.

As I said before, a proper guide of some sort when placing cut sheet would be welcome and some feedback has been given to that extent.  That would assist with double sided registration if it ever happened.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2008, 04:23:11 am »

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If you're looking for professional double sided printing, then maybe consider Agfa's Grand Sherpamatic:
http://www.agfa.com/en/gs/products_service...sherpamatic.jsp

It's not cheap, I tell you...

Regards,
Yann
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Looks professional but 25K Euro isn't what I like to spend.  

2x CMYK or CcMmYKk dye based inks.
4 minutes at 360 dpi for a dual 1000 x 700 mm sheet with 2x CMYK.  
1 mm precision at that sheet size between front and back.
I guess at 720 dpi and the other inkset it will be 16 minutes at least ... still a good speed but the 3 manufcturer's 60" models around are already faster and have pigment ink.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Brian Gilkes

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« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2008, 09:35:37 am »

With a 9800 Epson I get less than 0.5 mm variation front to back. The thing is to work out how the printer thinks. Now they aint that smart. They were never intended for 2 side printing, but they do operate consistently- not being smart enough to do otherwise.Like a dog they need guidance. I attach sheets to the end of rolls with tape and print as if for roll. Left to right and top to bottom is adjusted after the first run through in Photoshop. It works. Operating as if for a roll enables borderless printing on sheets so I can print full bleed on deckle edges. One must develop strategies to overcome cretinous engineering programming. Don't expect a printer to easily perform tasks it was not designed for. Remember Graham Nash and Mac Holbert took a grinder  (or similar) to a $250,000 Iris proofer to get it to print on art paper. Long ago in the 20th Century machines were a lot more versatile and manual. You had a machine that could do just about anything . You just set all the controls for the job in hand. Now most machines in the mass market try to make things easier for idiots and everything is programmed . The challenge for the operator who wants a result different to what the manufacturer assumes he/she wants, is to out manouver the machine mindset.
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2008, 06:14:03 pm »

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One must develop strategies to overcome cretinous engineering programming. Don't expect a printer to easily perform tasks it was not designed for. Remember Graham Nash and Mac Holbert took a grinder  (or similar) to a $250,000 Iris proofer to get it to print on art paper. Long ago in the 20th Century machines were a lot more versatile and manual. You had a machine that could do just about anything . You just set all the controls for the job in hand. Now most machines in the mass market try to make things easier for idiots and everything is programmed . The challenge for the operator who wants a result different to what the manufacturer assumes he/she wants, is to out manouver the machine mindset.
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's no hesitation here to customise printers and scanners or methods for the jobs at hand. Used that on the silkscreen equipment as well. The main reason I'm checking what exists in double sided printing is to pick up some ideas or to learn what doesn't work. Last week I did a job on a double sided paper 25" wide that started by cutting a roll of 50"wide 190 grams with the DeWalt. Printing the first sides from the roll and the second side as sheets. Last step was spot varnish applied in silkscreen.

I thinks the 1 mm tolerance is a bit rough too. But they start from the roll and the second printing is in sheets. At approx. 1000 x 700 mm there will always be some difference if compared to two runs done sheet wise.

Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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jscriba

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« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2008, 06:11:47 am »

Further thoughts on 9900 and calibration:

For those who are - like me - pondering about waiting for the new printers, here are some more thoughts on Epson's (probable) model strategy. What I wrote in my earlier post from Drupa has been corroberated by experts I have talked to in the meantime. The 7900 and 9900 printers are squarely targeted at the proofing market. The new ink set aims at being able to proof most of Pantone's spot colors and the spectrometer option is a high-end tool offering options like switchable UV-cut filters, user selectable black/white background etc. This has to be seen as a strategic move to defend the huge market share that Epson already has in the proofing sector against upstarts like HP making their solution of a print head integrated sensor look less professional.
The new printers will be marketed as high-end cousins to the photography-oriented models 7880 and 9880 which remain on the market. As photographers we are now facing an uncomfortable choice: Do we want the two black inks? Sure? Do we need the expensive high-end photometer? Probably not really.
Yes, it's true – from a perspective of physical measurement a robot photometer will be more reproducible than a hand-held one and prints made months appart without recalibration are visibly different. I recently reprinted an image on PhotoRag made a year ago with the same profile I used since then and the results differ very significantly. However, from an artistic point of view none of the pictures look "bad". So unless you are for some reason compelled to deliver identical prints over a long period of time you might live happily ever after with hand-made or ready-made profiles as others have suggested.
Epson will continue to have single-black "low cost" printers on the market for at least another year (keeping the 7880 alive for two years), so those of us who want the freedom to choose blacks without the ink change penalty will be pressured to buying the big irons. Even without the on-board photometer the 9900 will be priced significantly higher than the 9880 due to the more sophisiticated mechanics (we photographers don't really need, either). Let's face it: Epson makes its money in the printing industry and we photographers are welcome to buy into what technology they are willing make available at a time of their choice. Just look at their offence of introducing a new A3 photo printer (R2880) with vivid magenta but single matte/glossy black channel.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2008, 07:51:08 am »

Quote
Further thoughts on 9900 and calibration:

For those who are - like me - pondering about waiting for the new printers, here are some more thoughts on Epson's (probable) model strategy. What I wrote in my earlier post from Drupa has been corroberated by experts I have talked to in the meantime. The 7900 and 9900 printers are squarely targeted at the proofing market. The new ink set aims at being able to proof most of Pantone's spot colors and the spectrometer option is a high-end tool offering options like switchable UV-cut filters, user selectable black/white background etc. This has to be seen as a strategic move to defend the huge market share that Epson already has in the proofing sector against upstarts like HP making their solution of a print head integrated sensor look less professional.
The new printers will be marketed as high-end cousins to the photography-oriented models 7880 and 9880 which remain on the market. As photographers we are now facing an uncomfortable choice: Do we want the two black inks? Sure? Do we need the expensive high-end photometer? Probably not really.
Yes, it's true – from a perspective of physical measurement a robot photometer will be more reproducible than a hand-held one and prints made months appart without recalibration are visibly different. I recently reprinted an image on PhotoRag made a year ago with the same profile I used since then and the results differ very significantly. However, from an artistic point of view none of the pictures look "bad". So unless you are for some reason compelled to deliver identical prints over a long period of time you might live happily ever after with hand-made or ready-made profiles as others have suggested.
Epson will continue to have single-black "low cost" printers on the market for at least another year (keeping the 7880 alive for two years), so those of us who want the freedom to choose blacks without the ink change penalty will be pressured to buying the big irons. Even without the on-board photometer the 9900 will be priced significantly higher than the 9880 due to the more sophisiticated mechanics (we photographers don't really need, either). Let's face it: Epson makes its money in the printing industry and we photographers are welcome to buy into what technology they are willing make available at a time of their choice. Just look at their offence of introducing a new A3 photo printer (R2880) with vivid magenta but single matte/glossy black channel.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While the HP head carriage integrated spectrometer may look less professional there's no reason to think it isn't suited for proof printing calibration. Fogra certifications for the Z3100 show that the color deviation specs are within the limits Fogra sets for proof solutions.

[a href=\"http://www.gmgcolor.com/gmgcolor/561+M5d637b1e38d.0.html]http://www.gmgcolor.com/gmgcolor/561+M5d637b1e38d.0.html[/url]

Canon can bring similar consistency:

http://www.canon-europe.com/about_us/news/...100_ipf6100.asp

The main point is that piëzo heads are more expensive for the job to be done and if they can not make the difference in the market with their other properties like pumping solvent based inks, high viscosity inks, etc, they have heavy competition from thermo head systems. This stretches from humble desktop models to sign printers that avoid the choice for solvent inks like HP's Latex technology and the HP's Inkjet Web Press single pass roll width (now 36") printer.

Epson has a much wider market than graphic arts and certainly wouldn't like to be limited to that market where it is also facing the competition from the same brands on the same conditions. But it could well be that Epson has to make its money in the big printing industry mainly from now on. The Drupa stand showed the Epson small web label/sticker (Eco) solvent printer with a single pass head array. When asked the people servicing it told me that Epson plans to sell that printer itself. There were many heads and head assemblies shown to be used by third party manufacturers like Screen. The office A4 models with the Epson pro heads and big carts is another attempt to create a new market. The other choice is selling heads only and that in competition with many other piëzo head manufacturers.

Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 08:26:41 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Nill Toulme

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« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2008, 09:17:10 am »

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... I recently reprinted an image on PhotoRag made a year ago with the same profile I used since then and the results differ very significantly. ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203008\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do you know it was the printer that changed over the course of the year, and not the year-old print?

Nill
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neil snape

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« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2008, 09:33:49 am »

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How do you know it was the printer that changed over the course of the year, and not the year-old print?

Nill
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203042\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly why an on-board spectro could reduce the tolerance and repeatability to minimize differences leading to  a positive objective target control rather than a visual check (important nonetheless) without assurances upfront at print time.

Significant differences would tell me that there may be operating system /application/ driver changes, environmental changes too more important than the print permanence.
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eronald

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« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2008, 09:40:38 am »

The spectro debate will subside over time, as the technology price falls. I don't see Epson losing market share quickly in the fine arts business, their distribution is very good. The papers match the abilities of the printers, and are well distributed. Repro is a different trade, and Canon have an obvious channel entry here, along with HP who have always been present.

Edmund
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JimGoshorn

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« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2008, 10:02:32 am »

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The new printers will be marketed as high-end cousins to the photography-oriented models 7880 and 9880 which remain on the market. As photographers we are now facing an uncomfortable choice: Do we want the two black inks? Sure? Do we need the expensive high-end photometer? Probably not really.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203008\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I recall reading somewhere that the spectro is going to be an option so without that but with the wider gamut inks and two blacks, the printer is still fairly well aimed at the photo market as well wouldn't you say?

Jim
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digitaldog

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« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2008, 10:10:35 am »

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I recall reading somewhere that the spectro is going to be an option so without that but with the wider gamut inks and two blacks, the printer is still fairly well aimed at the photo market as well wouldn't you say?

Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly! The Spectrophotometer is really immaterial to the discussion. It is a new, state of the art X-Rite device that can be ordered or not and allows those who wish to profile their own papers that opportunity at a very good price point.
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2008, 12:06:38 pm »

I just got an email from SoP with the latest pricing:

Canon iPF5100 $1100 free delivery
Canon iPF6100 $2000 free delivery
Canon iPF8100 $3000 free delivery (ends this Wednesday)
Canon iPF9100 $8000 free delivery

Epson 4880 $1500 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 7880 $2450 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 9880 $4000 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 11880 $10300 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media

I imagine other resellers are following these prices too. Sounds like they are trying to blow out the 8100s especially. With these prices (and feature set) the iPF printers are hard to overlook.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2008, 03:05:38 pm »

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I just got an email from SoP with the latest pricing:

Canon iPF5100 $1100 free delivery
Canon iPF6100 $2000 free delivery
Canon iPF8100 $3000 free delivery (ends this Wednesday)
Canon iPF9100 $8000 free delivery

Epson 4880 $1500 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 7880 $2450 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 9880 $4000 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 11880 $10300 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media

I imagine other resellers are following these prices too. Sounds like they are trying to blow out the 8100s especially. With these prices (and feature set) the iPF printers are hard to overlook.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right, and the Epson 7900 and 9900 discussed here will not be under the 7880 + 9880 pricing whether there is a spectrometer or calibration aboard or not. As I understand it the bare 9900 and 7900 will  be more expensive than their equivalents from the competition that do have a spectrometer aboard or at least a calibration instrument integrated. There has to be quite a difference in the other specs to compensate that price difference. Maybe it is also immaterial to the discussion that there is a spectrometer on the Z3100 etc but users of that printer model like the extra feature.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Doombrain

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« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2008, 04:55:26 am »

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I recall reading somewhere that the spectro is going to be an option so without that but with the wider gamut inks and two blacks, the printer is still fairly well aimed at the photo market as well wouldn't you say?

Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson are aiming this product at the proofing market with art and photo in close 2nd place.
The spectro will be supported by all the big RIP players as well as point and click epson software for lino, ICCs and checks.
Some nice touches are the option for UV cut, white and black backing, a fan to help dry time and a bar which flattens the media before the patch is read which was a issue on the HP. But the best option is that you can take it or leave it.

The new cutter is great. You no longer have to wait for the head to reset to home position. As soon as the job is finished the printer spools some paper out and cuts in one fast action saving about 30secs.
Powered paper feed on the roll stops the media backing up which can damage some medias and there's no spindle anymore. Two guides with 2 and 3" adapters built in hold the roll and slide to fit rolls loaded.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 04:56:56 am by Doombrain »
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mmurph

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« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2008, 02:04:57 pm »

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Epson 4880 $1500 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 7880 $2450 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 9880 $4000 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media
Epson 11880 $10300 after rebate plus 3 free rolls Epson media

Any thoughts that these might be the future price points for these machines?

Epson has been discounting the 7800/7880/9800/9880 for **so long** that they are going to have trouble moving back to their previous price point!

Too much churn. First they closed out the 7800 for $2,000 or less. That was just last December.  Then these rebates starting in March, extended through June. Plus 7800 refurbs for under $1,800 at the same time.

Seems like $2,450 may wind up being the new street price for a 7880?  Where will the 7900 without spectro slot in - $4,500 US street? $4K? $3.8K? Less?  

I can't believe they will get away with more than $5K on a 24" machine (without spectro.)


Best,
Michael
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Farmer

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« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2008, 03:57:05 am »

Neil - finally confirmed that PK-MK is less than 1ml and MK-PK is under 3ml.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2008, 04:23:45 am »

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Neil - finally confirmed that PK-MK is less than 1ml and MK-PK is under 3ml.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


2/3 of what a 3800 uses then. 4 ml on a full cycle PK>MK>PK and 1.20 Euro ex VAT or the equivalent of approx a 4 square feet print. Better than I expected.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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booksmartstudio

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« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2008, 02:09:57 pm »

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For those of you wondering why the discounts on the present Epson 7880 & 9880 printers -- the new 7900 & 9900!  'bout bloody time I say.

http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1329
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This link works:

[a href=\"http://site.booksmartstudio.com/blog/?p=10]http://site.booksmartstudio.com/blog/?p=10[/url]
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