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Author Topic: MF vs 1Ds3  (Read 144530 times)

Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #220 on: May 03, 2008, 12:01:29 pm »

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Ray,

 I think the P45 fit/focus distance on the Mamiya body is the culprit here - I had two P45+ units that were so-so in sharpness (beating a 1Ds3, still), and a P45 repair loaner that was scary razor sharp.

 Basically, when you get a digital back you buy a lottery ticket.

 My experience with the high-end Canon bodies has been similar, but as they are complete integrated units Canon can to a degree recalibrate the auto-focus. Hassy and Sinar can do this too.

Edmund
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Edmund,
I guess we have to accept that modern digital camera technology, or any mass production process, is not perfect.

The Apollo 11 mission to the moon almost didn't make the trip back. It was touch and go, although we didn't realise it at the time.

It's amazing that these digital cameras work at all. We just have to make the best with what we can get. I'm very happy with my 5D. If I get the adapter I ordered to fit the Nikon 14-28/2.8 to my 5D, I'll be even happier.

However, what I really want is a low noise 24mp FF 35mm camera, like the one Sony will soon release, but with no AA filter.

I think software can often compensate for the lower pixel resolution and dynamic range of the 35mm sensor (compared with DB). We have stacking options in CS3-E to reduce noise, image alignment for hand-held bracketed exposures to increase DR, and amazingly accurate stitching programs like Autopano Pro.

I'm really not keen on the MFDB approach. It's not just the cost of the back but the cost of the camera body and lenses which is off-putting.

I'm a believer in maximising my satisfaction for the money I spend. At the same time, I have no objection to wealthy people supporting the development of medium and large format digital photography. But it does seem like a very expensive pursuit akin to buying diamonds, fur coats and designer clothes.

Perhaps I'll search a bit for some 5D shots of sharp hair, eye lashes, teeth and lips. I've got a cross reference to phallic symbolism, but not the former.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #221 on: May 03, 2008, 01:08:13 pm »

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James R Russell

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« Reply #222 on: May 03, 2008, 01:16:12 pm »

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Ray,

 I think the P45 fit/focus distance on the Mamiya body is the culprit here - I had two P45+ units that were so-so in sharpness (beating a 1Ds3, still), and a P45 repair loaner that was scary razor sharp.

 Basically, when you get a digital back you buy a lottery ticket.

 My experience with the high-end Canon bodies has been similar, but as they are complete integrated units Canon can to a degree recalibrate the auto-focus. Hassy and Sinar can do this too.

Edmund
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Edmund,

I don't understand this.

I've only owned Leaf and Phase digital backs but I can promise you both of those companies will bend over backwards to correct an issue, if it is in their control and as long as the dealers are in Atlanta they will stand by you to get it right, regardless of their profit margin or time investment.

In fact I was one of the people that identified the dropped and corrupt file issues of the 1ds2 and Canon was anything but transparent  or helpful.   I could write about 10,000 words on how wrong the corporate response was, but before doing so I would have to have my law firm sign off on the report.

If you really do have a loaner p45 that is superiior to your own p45 I can't help but believe the manufacturer won't make this right.

If anything that medium format can do that is beyond the standard dslr think is they understand that these are professional tools and getting it right is serious business.

JR
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Ignatz_Mouse

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« Reply #223 on: May 03, 2008, 02:56:09 pm »

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I'm really not keen on the MFDB approach. It's not just the cost of the back but the cost of the camera body and lenses which is off-putting.

I'm a believer in maximising my satisfaction for the money I spend. At the same time, I have no objection to wealthy people supporting the development of medium and large format digital photography. But it does seem like a very expensive pursuit akin to buying diamonds, fur coats and designer clothes.

All of these discussions about MFDB vs 35mm DSLR remind me that other ones taking place in the high-end audio forums... How good is a 10.000 euros Gryphon integrated amp vs a 2.000 euros Marantz? And how good is a 30.000 euros Audio Research/Krell preamplifier/amp combo vs the Gryphon? There will be always a lot of people expecting to read that the Gryphon is not-that-good and the difference between it and the Marantz are there for a very small margin or even not margin at all. Of course, there will be always some people treating others as virtually idiots for just dare to raise such a "boring, silly, pathetic, etc" question.

Of course, the real thing is that a 10.000 euros Gryphon sounds better than a 2.000 euros Marantz but not five times better... Just "better" with an advantage that will be relative if it has to move a pair of monitor speakers in a small room but that it will be more clear if it has to move a pair of 12.000 euros Nautilus 802D in a big room... But at the end I'm afraid that the real, definitive "importance" of these differences depends on how much money you can spend in this kind of things.

I can see that quality advantage of a MFDB image over a DSLR one but cannot accept the price jump on a rational or justfiable basis. I cannot understand why a Hasselblad H3DII can cost more than a Sony HDCAM broadcast video camera: it's totally stupid because the Sony represents a far more complex effort in terms of design and engineering than the Hassel.

You have a special "professional" support from a MFDB manufacturer that Canon or Nikon is not going to offer... Well, I wouldn´t expect less. When my 6.000 euros Musical-Fidelity SACD player unexpectedly "died" after two years and out of warranty and the guys at MF in England couldn't solve the problem they send me a brand new 6.000 euros KW-SACD in exchange for not cost at all... Well, I`m sure this wouldn´t be the same if I had a Marantz.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 02:57:40 pm by Ignatz_Mouse »
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bryanyc

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« Reply #224 on: May 03, 2008, 05:01:39 pm »

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The only thing you're seeing is jpg compression. 
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I wouldn't be so sure.     Jpeg compression doesn't create halo's like around the teeth, it creates blocky patches.    It is almost impossible to produce a digital image without sharpening because of the necessity for it and that most all development software has a baseline of sharpening built in.  This is what accounts for the quick blow out in fine white detail as in hair.

Also did you noticed the color moire in the fabric detail in the black areas?  Again, this isn't jpeg compression.

IMHO digitial images are often too brittle because of sharpening which has been applied.  I remember how much the promotional images for the first digital backs with their ultra contrast and super sharp detail hurt my eyes.  Smoothness of tonal transitions is vastly underappreciated.  This is what sets apart a contact print from an enlargement.  The march of modern imaging (in both photography and reproduction) has been one of ever increasing contrast and saturation and this is also true of our viewing media: lcd's are super sharp as opposed to crt's.  Note that this is not necessarily always good in all cases.     A couple of days ago I was at a benefit for an arts organization where I had donated a print and they brought in the Polaroid 20x24 camera with John Reuter running it with 2 assistants.  Portraits on the spot for $3000 a pop.  In looking at the prints I had an almost eery feeling: the prints were not sharp really but somehow they had extremely high resolution and smoothness.

In regard to tonality MFDigital is going to have and advantage over 35mm digital.  I would love to see the difference in color and tonality that the multishot digital backs produce.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #225 on: May 03, 2008, 06:01:27 pm »

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jjj

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« Reply #226 on: May 03, 2008, 07:44:18 pm »

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However, what I really want is a low noise 24mp FF 35mm camera, like the one Sony will soon release, but with no AA filter.
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Out of curiosity, why? What actual difference will it really make to your photography? Not having a go, just curious as to why you think this is what you needm to move on.
I have have seen lots of images in exhibitions or in books, magazines etc,  that on a technical level are way below a DSLR when it comes to resolving detail, yet the images are still wonderful.
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Ray

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« Reply #227 on: May 03, 2008, 10:02:12 pm »

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Out of curiosity, why? What actual difference will it really make to your photography? Not having a go, just curious as to why you think this is what you needm to move on.
I have have seen lots of images in exhibitions or in books, magazines etc,  that on a technical level are way below a DSLR when it comes to resolving detail, yet the images are still wonderful.
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Good question. I guess for a number of reasons. I use a 24" wide Epson 7600 printer. 12mp doesn't seem quite enough for a 23"x35" print when viewed close. At such a size, stitched scenes look better.

Nevertheless, two lenses are better than one. I'd expect that 3 overlapping 12mp images stitched to a resulting 24mp image would always look more detailed than a single 24mp shot. I'd also be happy with a 5D upgrade retaining the same 12m pixel count, but boasting new features such as LiveView, a faster frame rate and lower noise.... I mean significantly lower noise, not the 1/3 stop improvement of the D3   .

This new 24mp Sony sensor also appeals to me because I already have a few good Minolta-fit lenses that are not being used.
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SecondFocus

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« Reply #228 on: May 03, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »

I am saddened that Mr. Russell has finally told the truth behind the conspiracy. And yes I have been one of those taken in. I am sad to say that I have joined the ranks of not finding the small sensor 35mm type as good as MFDB or maybe even MF film.

Alas had I only joined the ranks of Pixel Peeper instead of furthering my life as a professional photographer I would have been much happier. I don't even own a cat so photography of the cat whisker will not be available to me. Sad but true, I am certainly destined to Pixel Peeper Hell, only occasionally being able to photograph the text of a newspaper or cereal box.

See you at the Motel 6 and ask them to leave the lights on (iso and all that)

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Yes Ray, it's a conspiracy.

Every year the top 1,000 professional photographers in the world meet in the old Norad mountain hideout with Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Hasselblad and come to agreement how best to "trick" you into believing you need to throw away your 5d and drop 50 large on a Leaf HY6.

In fact Annie said the other day, "if only we could get Ray to buy a new camera, then my career would be complete".

Karl Lagerfeld responded, "screw this, I'm just going to buy this Ray person a new camera, but I urged him not to, because those custom collars were really cutting into the Kaiser's operating expense and well we all know Chanel has to watch the money they spend.

Yes Ray you've finally uncovered our plot.

Damn, now we're going to have to move next years meeting to the motel 6 at Disney World.

JR
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Ray

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« Reply #229 on: May 04, 2008, 03:52:31 am »

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I am saddened that Mr. Russell has finally told the truth behind the conspiracy. And yes I have been one of those taken in. I am sad to say that I have joined the ranks of not finding the small sensor 35mm type as good as MFDB or maybe even MF film.
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It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It's well known that the mere knowledge that something is expensive and supposedly of high quality is sufficient to produce pleasurable sensations. Tell someone the cheap wine they are drinking cost $50 a bottle, and the wine will likely taste better. Tell them the amplifier in the hi fi system is a $20,000 Mark-Levinson hybrid amplifier, and the music will likely sound better. The experience will likely be real. It's called the placebo effect.

Maybe the real reason DBs don't have AA filters is so the images can be distinguished from 35mm DSLR images. Without the tell-tale signs of moire, however slight, a P21 image would likely be indistinguishable from a 1Ds3 image.

(Just joking! Keep your shirt on!   )
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Ray

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« Reply #230 on: May 04, 2008, 04:24:55 am »

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If you think I'm not telling the truth that's your problem man...
There's no white halos or moiré in my files. 
Maybe you need higher quality jpgs to believe me? or tiff? I don't think small details will win your war against MF. Sorry.

Regarding my participation in this thread. It ends here.
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Samuel,
If you're going to demonstrate a point, it's always advisable to use the maximum quality jpeg compression, which is a compression ratio of about 3 to 1.

Below are examples of 100% crops of a 5D image using the Canon 24-105 zoom. The crop on the left has had only default sharpening in ACR of 25, 1 pixel radius and 25 detail. The crop on the right has had additional sharpening in Photoshop and has been deliberately oversharpened to bring out the halos.

[attachment=6414:attachment]

I see essentially no difference between the uncompressed tif and the jpegs. The halos are equally visible in both the tif and the jpeg crop of the oversharpened image, and equally invisible in both the tif and the jpeg crop on the left with default sharpening.
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NBP

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« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2008, 10:00:03 am »

Ray?
You need to get out more - seriously.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2008, 01:00:30 pm »

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Ray?
You need to get out more - seriously.
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Please, somebody pull the plug on this thread.

Raymond has had more than his 10 minutes of attention and it's a shame we can't just lift this whole thing and move it where it belongs to DP review or some stoner's blog titled, How To Screw Up A Jpeg.

I do have to admit that the two tongue photos are pretty funny.

JR

P.S.  this is exactly what happens on the democratic web, where every voice has equal value.
It's a shame because this is the only public site that can address a lot of common interests among professionals, whether it be technique, or just maneuvering a career.

There is a lot of good relevant, even controversial topics that can be the catalyst of really thought provoking discussion.

The manufacturer's read this stuff and instead of a concise laundry list of what we really need to improve our art, this all gets moved to compare the tongues jpegs.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 01:08:09 pm by James R Russell »
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eronald

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« Reply #233 on: May 04, 2008, 01:07:09 pm »

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I do have to admit that the two tounge photos are pretty funny.

JR
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Is it just me, or are all records now titled "Get out of my room, Parent!" while personal adornments scream "Get out of my face, Oldie!"

Edmund
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SecondFocus

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« Reply #234 on: May 04, 2008, 02:40:43 pm »

The plug won't get pulled, sadly. There are Pixel Peepers out there and in these forums who make this their home and ruin most threads. We need a pro forum like SportsShooter (I am a member) where stuff like this does not happen quite as badly. Oh well!

At least the MFDB "Recent Works" thread has stayed fairly pristine. Those who have tried to play their game there have been shot down pretty quickly as we have seen. But it can't last forever, I am afraid.

Quote
Please, somebody pull the plug on this thread.

Raymond has had more than his 10 minutes of attention and it's a shame we can't just lift this whole thing and move it where it belongs to DP review or some stoner's blog titled, How To Screw Up A Jpeg.

I do have to admit that the two tongue photos are pretty funny.

JR

P.S.  this is exactly what happens on the democratic web, where every voice has equal value.
It's a shame because this is the only public site that can address a lot of common interests among professionals, whether it be technique, or just maneuvering a career.

There is a lot of good relevant, even controversial topics that can be the catalyst of really thought provoking discussion.

The manufacturer's read this stuff and instead of a concise laundry list of what we really need to improve our art, this all gets moved to compare the tongues jpegs.
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Ray

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« Reply #235 on: May 04, 2008, 08:44:41 pm »

The reason that threads like this become so long is that people keep visiting them in the hope that they'll eventually see a compent comparison between a 1Ds3 and a P21, or ZD, or even a P25. If the P25 image were cropped to the same aspect ratio as 35mm, it could be a fair comparison.

But it looks as though this will be yet another doomed thread with no conclusion and the issues raised will keep repeating themselves for ever more.

Fred Barnard coined the phrase, "A picture is worth a thousand words' in 1927 and described it as an ancient Chinese proverb to impart a sense of authority and wisdom to the phrase.

However, when comparing a 1Ds3 with a DB of similar pixel count, one picture is not enough. We need at least 2 pictures; one from each camera. If we had two such pictures (taken with the impeccable and flawless technique that is second nature to you professionals) then maybe we could save 2,000 words.

However, I doubt it. Judging from the past attempts to provide such a comparison on this forum, I think two such images would generate at least 10,000 words. There'd be no saving at all. Perhaps we're better off with no comparisons   .
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Ray

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« Reply #236 on: May 04, 2008, 10:20:16 pm »

If we get back to the link provided by Edmund in the first post, http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium...G_THE_FUND.html , I cannot find any direct comparisons there either, just a lot of outrageous statement such as:

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Do I like the Canon 1Ds Mark III? No. In consideration of its price and file quality relative to a Canon 1Ds Mark II, the Mark III is a under-performer. Adding insult to injury, the P25 kicks the 1Ds3’s proverbial butt. Frankly, I think the Canon 5D and Canon 1Ds Mark II put up a better fight. The Canon 1Ds Mark III requires copious amounts of sharpening and its dynamic range is about 2/3 of a stop less than the 1Ds Mark II’s.

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Full-frame sensors such as the Canon 1Ds Mark III are years away from matching medium format sensors. If Canon continues to offer more megapixels while reducing pixel performance, this gap will only widen.

Fighting words, eh? Pity there are no direct comparisons. This notion that you need to take thousands of images over a considerable period of time in order to get a sense of the image superiority of one camera compared to another, has its place. It might be the best approach. Unfortunately, such an approach tends to muddle issues of personal shooting habits and working style, not only with regard to the way the equipment is used, but also with regard to the way the images are processed.

There is something very revealing about the comparisons made so far which have appeared on this site. They tend to give the impression that the photographer's subconscious took over as soon as he/she switched to the 35mm equipment, in order to ensure that the 35mm result was not good. There seemed to be a complete inability to get the most out of the 35mm equipment and use it as though that were the only camera available and one simply had to do the best job one could.

I'll give a few examples from memory. I might not have got all the details precisely correct, but from memory, the first comparison was between the 1Ds3, P21 and ZD.

No attempt appeared to have been made to match FoVs. They were way out. The same f stops were used on all cameras and the focussing was different.

The next comparison between the P21 and 1Ds3 displayed huge differences in the way the images had been processed. The P21 image was bright and contrasty and the 1Ds3 image flat and dull. The same f stop had been used for both shots (F13 from memory) thus depriving the 1Ds3 of the greater resolution the smaller sensor needs, whilst at the same time needlessly giving it greater DoF than the other shot.

In another example, the 35mm shot was of a lady's face showing her with incomplete make-up in poor lighting and with dull image processing. The DB shot was of the same lady fully made up, better lighting and the usual highlight glint in the centre of the pupil.

Since I know you guys are experienced photographers and not this incompetent, I tend to draw the conclusion that either your subconscious is at work protecting your conscious from unpalable truths, or you just don't give a damn.

On the other hand, it could simply be the case that, after many thousands of shots getting used to MF equipment, you are simply unable to make a sudden switch to 35mm. You need to take a few thousand shots first to get used to that 35mm equipment, or at least remember how it used to be.
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jing q

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« Reply #237 on: May 04, 2008, 10:48:27 pm »

Quote
If we get back to the link provided by Edmund in the first post, http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium...G_THE_FUND.html , I cannot find any direct comparisons there either, just a lot of outrageous statement such as:
Fighting words, eh? Pity there are no direct comparisons. This notion that you need to take thousands of images over a considerable period of time in order to get a sense of the image superiority of one camera compared to another, has its place. It might be the best approach. Unfortunately, such an approach tends to muddle issues of personal shooting habits and working style, not only with regard to the way the equipment is used, but also with regard to the way the images are processed.

There is something very revealing about the comparisons made so far which have appeared on this site. They tend to give the impression that the photographer's subconscious took over as soon as he/she switched to the 35mm equipment, in order to ensure that the 35mm result was not good. There seemed to be a complete inability to get the most out of the 35mm equipment and use it as though that were the only camera available and one simply had to do the best job one could.

I'll give a few examples from memory. I might not have got all the details precisely correct, but from memory, the first comparison was between the 1Ds3, P21 and ZD.

No attempt appeared to have been made to match FoVs. They were way out. The same f stops were used on all cameras and the focussing was different.

The next comparison between the P21 and 1Ds3 displayed huge differences in the way the images had been processed. The P21 image was bright and contrasty and the 1Ds3 image flat and dull. The same f stop had been used for both shots (F13 from memory) thus depriving the 1Ds3 of the greater resolution the smaller sensor needs, whilst at the same time needlessly giving it greater DoF than the other shot.

In another example, the 35mm shot was of a lady's face showing her with incomplete make-up in poor lighting and with dull image processing. The DB shot was of the same lady fully made up, better lighting and the usual highlight glint in the centre of the pupil.

Since I know you guys are experienced photographers and not this incompetent, I tend to draw the conclusion that either your subconscious is at work protecting your conscious from unpalable truths, or you just don't give a damn.

On the other hand, it could simply be the case that, after many thousands of shots getting used to MF equipment, you are simply unable to make a sudden switch to 35mm. You need to take a few thousand shots first to get used to that 35mm equipment, or at least remember how it used to be.
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ray,  you win, you win.
can you go away now.
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klane

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« Reply #238 on: May 04, 2008, 11:24:36 pm »

I have a solution to all the madness, there needs to be a new forum section called "comparisons"

ANY discussion or actual comparsions between format sizes digital or film will take place there and ONLY there.

Any posts related to the above mentioned posted here or in another section will be moved to the new section or deleted.


anyone with me on this?
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #239 on: May 05, 2008, 12:24:02 am »

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The reason that threads like this become so long is that people keep visiting them in the hope that they'll eventually see a compent comparison between a 1Ds3 and a P21, or ZD, or even a P25.
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No, the reason this thread is so long is because you keep adding to it! 40 posts from you so far in this thread alone...

Another vote here for deleting this thread.
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