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Author Topic: MF vs 1Ds3  (Read 144574 times)

amsp

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #200 on: May 01, 2008, 12:30:18 pm »

"Beautiful photography has nothing to do with cropping a tree limb at 100%" ...now there's a tagline!  
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #201 on: May 01, 2008, 12:45:37 pm »

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You see thats how it is with the new cameras, there all really good, the differences are small, depending on light and how you shoot sometimes the advantages between cameras are reversed, you can't tell which camera is "best" from looking at one or even a bunch of tests. You have to go out and shoot these cameras on jobs, shoot hundreds of images and then, don't just look at files 100 percent on screen but look at prints and don't just examine them but step back and see how they make you feel and then try and figure out whether that feeling is helped by the attributes of the camera. Unfortunately this doesn't help armchair pundits, you want an easy answer, you want A vs B with a nice clear cut answer but it just doesn't work like that. Unfortunately that means that you do have to somehow get your hands on a costly DB for a good amount of time and shoot it and look at it with not just a technical eye but an artists eye too which some people cannot do and that is unfortunate but until you do that you DO NOT HAVE A VALID OPINION ON THE SUBJECT.
Sorry for the rant but I think this is a fundamental idea which is important to understand to prevent this otherwise valuable resource of a forum being taken down the plug hole into dpreview territory.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192921\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know, after reading that, I'm almost persuaded that Ken Rockwell was literally correct in his controversial article, 'The Camera doesn't matter'.
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jing q

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« Reply #202 on: May 01, 2008, 01:05:11 pm »

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That might indeed be the case. But I, for one, am not going to buy a camera on the basis that any improvement in image quality cannot be demonstrated because such comparisons are too boring. If the matter is too boring, then it's not relevant. I'll stick with what I've got, thank you.
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ray, no one cares what you stick with.
move on please.
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Ray

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« Reply #203 on: May 01, 2008, 01:14:33 pm »

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ray, no one cares what you stick with.
move on please.
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No one cares!! I care. That's why I'm writing this stuff. Move on to what? Is there some pre-determined agenda here? You're not making any sense.
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jing q

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #204 on: May 01, 2008, 01:29:33 pm »

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No one cares!! I care. That's why I'm writing this stuff. Move on to what? Is there some pre-determined agenda here? You're not making any sense.
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great that you care, but please don't force it down our throats
this has been discussed to death in the older 1ds mk II thread and it's really old already.
people who aren't convinced by the 3rd page are not going to be convinced by the 6th page.
go take some photos or cook an omelette or make some money
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 01:30:47 pm by jing q »
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James R Russell

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #205 on: May 01, 2008, 01:30:15 pm »

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No one cares!! I care. That's why I'm writing this stuff. Move on to what? Is there some pre-determined agenda here? You're not making any sense.
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Yes Ray, it's a conspiracy.

Every year the top 1,000 professional photographers in the world meet in the old Norad mountain hideout with Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Hasselblad and come to agreement how best to "trick" you into believing you need to throw away your 5d and drop 50 large on a Leaf HY6.

In fact Annie said the other day, "if only we could get Ray to buy a new camera, then my career would be complete".

Karl Lagerfeld responded, "screw this, I'm just going to buy this Ray person a new camera, but I urged him not to, because those custom collars were really cutting into the Kaiser's operating expense and well we all know Chanel has to watch the money they spend.

Yes Ray you've finally uncovered our plot.

Damn, now we're going to have to move next years meeting to the motel 6 at Disney World.

JR
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Ignatz_Mouse

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #206 on: May 01, 2008, 03:03:55 pm »

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Well, excuse me, I just didn't know that, James. I got the impression that AA filters were in place to slay the 300 lb monster.

The Leica R8/R9/Digital-Modul-R is the only 35mm dslr that hasn't an AA filter. It also has a CCD with big photosites and not a CMOS. The quality of the output at 100 and 200 ISO in combination with the Leica glass is really outstanding. I`ve rarely seen any moire in my Leica images, this occurs from time to time and under certain conditions we all already know. I've also seen some moire in my Olympus E-1 images, a camera that it's known for incorporating a very strong AA filter.

The new Leica R10 is not going to incorporate an AA filter. It will be a FF (or "bigger") dslr with, at least, 16 Mpx of resolution (this was the assumed minimal resolution two years ago so the final one will be probably higher). How will it compare with the current and new high resulution dslrs (1dsmkIII, D3x?, A900?) an some MFDB will be something interesting to see.
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Plekto

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #207 on: May 01, 2008, 03:38:55 pm »

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And as I said before THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE FINAL IMAGE. I posted a comparsion a time ago between the hot_rod 5d and the normal shot. AFTER capture sharpning nearly nobody could say which one was the one without AA. Now to go even further I did this and printed the image. I gave it to different artists and photographers here 0 out of around 20 people could see a difference. So sorry, the whole thing hot_rod is doing is making money and nothing more.
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So the processing and filtering and such should be controlled by the manufacturer instead of under our control?  I find that to be a hard position to support.  And I don't know of any program that does sharpening that doesn't also alter the image in other negative ways.  Photoshop is notorious for mangling raw files when it imports them, for instance.  

I should be able to get that sort of result by default.  Now, in a point and shoot camera, yes, I can see how all of that nanny-ware is a good thing.  But for someone who does professional level work, it's actually a hindrance.
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eronald

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« Reply #208 on: May 01, 2008, 03:39:34 pm »

I own a 44" Epson printer (saved from the junkheap) and a postcard Canon printer. Both have their uses

Edmund

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I own DB & Nikon, I know several friends that own DB & Canons. For some reason none of us makes that comparison indeed. Most of us know when to use what so why should we? To satisfy your needs?

Quite frankly, my mind is never on how the D300 compares to the CF39 or the 384. I make the shots with the thing that IMO and with my way of working does it best, period.

Comparing the systems is a big waste of time, IMO naturally.
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samuel_js

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #209 on: May 01, 2008, 04:42:23 pm »

- Removed -
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 01:09:10 pm by samuel_js »
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HarperPhotos

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #210 on: May 01, 2008, 04:42:43 pm »

Gidday,

Come on guys trying to convince Ray on the image superiority of DBs over his precious Canons is like telling a born again Christian that God doesn’t exists.

Simon
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Ignatz_Mouse

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« Reply #211 on: May 01, 2008, 04:53:13 pm »

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Gidday,

Come on guys trying to convince Ray on the image superiority of DBs over his precious Canons is like telling a born again Christian that God doesn’t exists.

Simon
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"Less photography and more art, less art and more truth" (Robert Frank)
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #212 on: May 02, 2008, 08:47:02 pm »

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Ray, beside the sickness of this discussion and also leaving beside the fact that all this conversation is pointless and pathetic I'll try to help you out.
Because you refuse to try a DB for yourself, I just suppose you're afraid to see the truth with your own eyes. What would you do if you find out that a DB could be superior?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Samuel,
Your example shot looks quite sharp to me. It's what one might expect from a 20mp camera. The focussing is on a sunlit, contrasty part of the scene so focussing should be accurate. I get a sense there's an extra crispness to the image which a 1Ds3 might not be able to deliver, but of course we can't be sure about that due to the lack of suitable comparisons.

Since I don't own a 1Ds3, I can't show you a similarly sharp image, and even if I could, it wouldn't be conclusive. A proper comparison needs to be of the identical subject with accurate adjustment of aperture and focal length to maintain similar DoF and FoV with both cameras. Focussing should also be on the same precise spot in each shot, which means using the LiveView of the 1Ds3 (at 10x magnification) and tethering the DB.

It would also help if we had two sets of comparison, one with the 1Ds3 cropped to the DB aspect ratio and one with the DB cropped to the 35mm aspect ratio.

Processing of the two sets of images should also be different, as required, to get similar white balance, temperature, tint, color saturation etc. Special attention should be given to sharpening of the 1Ds3 image, since the presence of an AA filter requires this.

Of course, now I realise that you are all bored with this subject and were never interested in such matters in the first place and don't give two hoots as to whether or not a DB produces better images than a 35mm DSLR of similar pixel count since the real reason for your buying into such an expensive system is not to get any marginal increase in fundamental image quality compared with 35mm, but to get equipment which is more suitable for your working environment and style of shooting, I don't suppose we'll ever see such comparisons.

That's fine by me. I think I've got the message that any such improvement in fundamental image quality offered by the DB (of similar pixel count - it's always necessary to stress that) is just too marginal to bother with. It's just plain boring, pointless and pathetic.
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bryanyc

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« Reply #213 on: May 03, 2008, 04:09:28 am »

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Ray, beside the sickness of this discussion and also leaving beside the fact that all this conversation is pointless and pathetic I'll try to help you out.

Sorry, image looks oversharpened.  look at white lines around teeth, then hair.  Film would be smoother.
 
Anyway, all you who feel a dead horse is being beaten here: just don't read anymore, thats pretty simple isn't it???  And let others interested and who may have something positive or informative to say post away (and keep the smarmy comments for other deserving folks like your assistants or whomever is "lesser than thou").  There have been some valuable comments in the thread which wouldn't have occurred if you had your way.  So, chill, don't read the thread.

Is there a problem with that scenario?  Good.

There are many folks who have a hard time putting their hands on a $35,000 dollar rig for a sustained period of time who, at least initially, benefit from as much varied input as possible.  Perhaps they are even younger and less well heeled.  Who knows.  Tolerance is a virtue, especially when you don't have to read or post in a thread.  Getting the point???

Good.  Now, as someone who has taught digital photography at university, shot 8x10" down through virtually every format, shot professionally for years from editorial to advertising, owns drum scanner and prints to more than 6 feet, owns a $15K digital rig, and for those arteests out there has a MFA in Photo, regularly exhibits work and could give a fcsk about boring commercial work, I humbly cede the stage to any person still interested in discussing the topic at hand.

P.S.  if you are on the fence now, I would recommend waiting until the Photokina in the Fall where, who knows, some improvements in the MFDB might be announced.  There is a real quandary for those who desire "large format" or medium format quality yet don't have a years salary to blow on the hardware.   I agree with others that the way you work with the camera and the types of images it is suited for is more important than how sharp it renders eyelashes.  I have shown 1dsmk2 images at 4 x 5 feet and they held up well (though they were not detail oriented images).  For work reproduced in most magazines etc. the Canons have more that enough resolution - but there are aesthetic, technical and personal reasons why they might be ill equipped for certain work.  I await a mature MFD system (probably the HY6) that I can purchase that I can swap the back onto my Alpa SWA when needed.   But until then, I will continue to gather the obscure info that only those who are already long term shooters of medium format can provide.

Viva the stupid thread  
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #214 on: May 03, 2008, 05:47:26 am »

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Anyway, all you who feel a dead horse is being beaten here: just don't read anymore, thats pretty simple isn't it???  And let others interested and who may have something positive or informative to say post away (and keep the smarmy comments for other deserving folks like your assistants or whomever is "lesser than thou").  There have been some valuable comments in the thread which wouldn't have occurred if you had your way.  So, chill, don't read the thread.

I agree. When I come across the sorts of comments in this thread, such as; sick, boring, pointless, pathetic etc., I just assume that the posters writing such comments are not only unable to address the fundamental issue under discussion, but they are actually afraid of the conclusions they might find if they were to address the issue.

Ad hominen attacks are the usual way out of such a predicament. Try to create the impression that you don't really care; that the issue is not worthy of your attention; that there are more noble issues at hand.

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Sorry, image looks oversharpened.  look at white lines around teeth, then hair.  Film would be smoother.

The teeth do look oversharpened. I didn't notice that. However, to be kind to Samuel, the amount of sharpening depends on the intended print size. printed fairly small, say A3+, those white lines and halos wouldn't be noticeable, would they?  
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #215 on: May 03, 2008, 05:52:04 am »

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Leaf backs can only tether if the battery is removed and gets power from the firewire port. This makes it harder to swiftly go from tethering to portable. Phase backs can tether and still have the battery connected so pulling the firewire lets you keep shooting.

Interesting, I would not have expected that. The Sinar eMotion backs can also be unplugged and keep shooting. I just assumed they all worked this way.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #216 on: May 03, 2008, 06:26:19 am »

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Karl Lagerfeld responded, "screw this, I'm just going to buy this Ray person a new camera, but I urged him not to, because those custom collars were really cutting into the Kaiser's operating expense and well we all know Chanel has to watch the money they spend.
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lol !

You forgot this guy

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eronald

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« Reply #217 on: May 03, 2008, 07:29:18 am »

Ray,

 I got my Mamiya/Phase P45+back because I wanted better quality than what I had -1Ds2-. In my opinion I did get very significantly better color and file "thickness", and sharpness is better than the new 1Ds3 but not as good as it should be. I think Hassy and Sinar probably have better constructions and do better on sharpness.

Edmund


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Of course, now I realise that you are all bored with this subject and were never interested in such matters in the first place and don't give two hoots as to whether or not a DB produces better images than a 35mm DSLR of similar pixel count since the real reason for your buying into such an expensive system is not to get any marginal increase in fundamental image quality compared with 35mm, but to get equipment which is more suitable for your working environment and style of shooting, I don't suppose we'll ever see such comparisons.

That's fine by me. I think I've got the message that any such improvement in fundamental image quality offered by the DB (of similar pixel count - it's always necessary to stress that) is just too marginal to bother with. It's just plain boring, pointless and pathetic.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 07:33:49 am by eronald »
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Ray

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MF vs 1Ds3
« Reply #218 on: May 03, 2008, 08:05:21 am »

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Ray,

 I got my Mamiya/Phase P45+back because I wanted better quality than what I had -1Ds2-. In my opinion I did get very significantly better color and file "thickness", and sharpness is better than the new 1Ds3 but not as good as it should be. I think Hassy and Sinar probably have better constructions and do better on sharpness.

Edmund
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Edmund,
I imagine that comparing a P45+ with a 1Ds2 would be a bit like comparing a 5D with AA filter removed, with a 6mp D60.

The owner of this site, when reviewing the 10mp 40D, claimed it was very close to the 5D in image quality, perhaps even better depending on lens quality.

If the bigger sensor with more pixels does not provide noticeably better image quality than the smaller sensor with fewer pixels, then there's something seriously inadequate about the bigger sensor or the lens.
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eronald

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« Reply #219 on: May 03, 2008, 09:10:29 am »

Ray,

 I think the P45 fit/focus distance on the Mamiya body is the culprit here - I had two P45+ units that were so-so in sharpness (beating a 1Ds3, still), and a P45 repair loaner that was scary razor sharp.

 Basically, when you get a digital back you buy a lottery ticket.

 My experience with the high-end Canon bodies has been similar, but as they are complete integrated units Canon can to a degree recalibrate the auto-focus. Hassy and Sinar can do this too.

Edmund



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Edmund,
I imagine that comparing a P45+ with a 1Ds2 would be a bit like comparing a 5D with AA filter removed, with a 6mp D60.

The owner of this site, when reviewing the 10mp 40D, claimed it was very close to the 5D in image quality, perhaps even better depending on lens quality.

If the bigger sensor with more pixels does not provide noticeably better image quality than the smaller sensor with fewer pixels, then there's something seriously inadequate about the bigger sensor or the lens.
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