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Author Topic: Advices for choosing a MF camera  (Read 8147 times)

marianst

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Advices for choosing a MF camera
« on: April 07, 2008, 04:10:52 pm »

Hello to all!

I am new to this forum, I greet you all!

I am extremely interested in acquiring a MF camera. In my highschool I used a Seagull, but the quality was so poor, then some metalic just broke.

I never heard in that period of names as Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Mamiya etc. I heard instead of Kiev, Zenit. My dream at that time was a Zenit.

In the last time of my life I rediscovered my passion from that time and bought a D80. Good enough for me as digital thing.

My inner world is more contemplative, I do not like to take many photographs, edit in PS or NX, then print.

Instead, I love to see first the landscape or that scene, to filter all in my being, and only then, IF I feel something, I photo.

Sincerely I think that a MF camera is very fit for me. I dare to step into this forum, hoping that you will not judge my ignorance, I want to learn. In my technical knowledge I have gaps, therefore I must learn.

Ok, I will tell you about what I would want. Perhaps I do not know many, therefore I am open.

My question is: What MF camera do you advise me to buy, together with what accesories?

The premises are:

1. My budget is of max. 1500$ for all. It is clear I must buy an used system.

2. I do not care for the heavy of the camera or its tripod. I have two legs and arms and do not bother too much with a heavier but FINE system.

3. I am focused on 6x6 or 6x7 size. What about 6x9? Of course, the size will be related to the kind of camera.

4. People! Do you know what is a canvas? I saw online some BW MF photographs and the quality is so so good and beautiful. Amazing tones. Well, my weakness is BW photography. How to say? A BW photograph transcends in my being the time, it is a step to an eternity.

5. I would like something performant. How to say?.........Good also after 30 years!

6. I do not worry for the cost of the films, scanning, enlargements etc. I have no breakeven. It is a passion.......

7. For the light. I prefer to take 10 or 20 photographs in an entire year. Even ONE. But good.

8. I would like to scan the negatives. I could just print the digital files or to enlarge the negative frames.

9. I want to buy also a true fine scanner. No toys. I want excellence.

10. Any work of mine will be free as the light is. I will offer for free prints to my friends and I will post online.

Ok, I hope I did not bore you too much. Hoping in your benevolence, I simply ask help for choosing, advice. I would appreciate any info/advice/suggestion and details related to any model of MF camera.

Now I know that exist brands as Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Mamyia, Bronica, Pentax, with many models.

Thank you in advance.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 04:46:12 pm »

You are going to have trouble finding a scanner for $1500 that will do a decent job. The same goes for most lenses that will cover 6x7 or larger. And you haven't even bought a camera yet. If if you get a cheap scanner and lenses that will fit in your budget, you'll be disappointed to find that your D80 does a much better job capturing the image. If you're not willing to spend $4000-5000 on camera, lenses, and scanner, you probably shouldn't bother.
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marianst

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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 05:05:32 pm »

Quote
You are going to have trouble finding a scanner for $1500 that will do a decent job. The same goes for most lenses that will cover 6x7 or larger. And you haven't even bought a camera yet. If if you get a cheap scanner and lenses that will fit in your budget, you'll be disappointed to find that your D80 does a much better job capturing the image. If you're not willing to spend $4000-5000 on camera, lenses, and scanner, you probably shouldn't bother.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187718\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello!

Thanks for your answer. I underline that 1500$ is for the camera system, i.e. MF camera + a lens or 2, some accesories. No idea...perhaps some backs, a filter etc.

The scanner and any other purchase is separate.

I fixed in my mind a budget of 1500$ for a MF camera system. I can rise it some idea, if the camera + lens etc are truly fine.

I apologize for not being clear in my post.

Thank you.
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marianst

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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 06:29:42 pm »

What about Mamiya RZ67 ProII?

What lens would any person suggest to me?

What must-have accessories?

Thanks.
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Plekto

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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 07:42:01 pm »

Quote
What about Mamiya RZ67 ProII?

What lens would any person suggest to me?

What must-have accessories?

Thanks.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am in the same situation.  Here's the skinny, based upon a couple of weeks worth of intense research(4-5 hours a day):(assuming you don't want to go digital - whole other issue)

Film scanner - Minolta Pro - this runs about $500-$600 used.  this cuts into your budget a lot. You'll also need an ad-on slide holder if you shoot slides.  Nothing else worth a dime can be had for less money.  This is essentially where film scanning reaches decent levels.  (ie - for MF, $4000 would be better than $1500)

6*7 is essentially a gimmick.  Here's why:  All of the printers and scanners have gone digital, so there's no way to effectively use those extra pixels short of roughly 20+ inch prints.  The Minolta scanner does medium format at 3200DPI and at 400DPI dye-sub, that's an astounding 18 inches high and 21 inches wide at pixel for pixel quality(0% loss).  Considering that anything that large will be on a wall and not viewed from 4 inches away, you can safely push that to 200DPI or the equivalent on an inkjet.  Do you really need to print 36x42?  A printer capable of printing that, even an inkjet, will cost you an arm and a leg as well.  If you plan to print 8*11 or similar, then you don't need even medium format as the printer and scanner's limitations effectively make it moot.

Note - 4800DPI MF scanners exist, but they cost $1000+, even used.  3200 is more than adequate, anyways, as that's about where you see more grain than improvement.

Back to MF, though:

The 67 ProII also will run you about $1000 for a good condition used body alone and the lenses are pricey - essentially 6x6 cost.  Parts and accessories are also $$$.

MF on a budget means rangefinder or manual with one exception which I'll get to later.  That said, a rangefinder camera can do astounding things.  

6*6 costs a fortune for the cameras unless you get a fully manual model like an old Rolleiflex or Rolleicord everything else in 6x6 under $1000 is essentially worthless in that type of camera.  As they say, Rollei makes no junk.   I had an old Rolleicord and other than the F3.5 lens on it - slightly worse than the high-end model - it worked the same and took identical pictures 98% of the time.  $300-$400 for a typical model in mint condition is common.  You'll want the later model Vb which was made in the late 70s, though.  It has a built-in meter and a few other goodies, plus is less likely to have died from old age/wear.

Ebay # 260224044287 - a mint example that recently sold.  This would obliterate the Chinese made one you used to have.  I had one and it worked exceedingly well.  I just was stupid and young and sold it about 15 years ago.  Whole other story...  heh.

As for rangefinders, there are 6*7 models, but they literally weight 6 lbs.  Not a joke. They are unwieldy to the point of absurdity.  6x6 rangefinders are a bit less cumbersome.  Not much, though.  

You will need a heavy tripod for any of them unless you are shooting 1/200 or faster.  (note rangefinders and TLRs have no moving parts to speak of other than the shutter, so they can get away with slightly slower speeds handheld.  A SLR type 6*7 will noticeably move in your hand when the mirror slams out of the way.  

If you want modern features, you're stuck with one option, really.  This is my recommendation at your price range and likely what I'll buy myself:

Get a 6*4.5.  This gives you a negative that is almost three times the size of 35mm.  It costs a LOT less, weights a lot less, can be had with auto-focus and other goodies like a typical 35mm(or in a perfectly normal sized rangefinder) , and when you print it out, it will do 13.5*18 prints with 0% loss at 400DPI dye-sub/good inkjet.  With reasonable losses, you can still print in excess of 3 ft wide.  

[a href=\"http://www.design215.com/toolbox/film_chart.php]http://www.design215.com/toolbox/film_chart.php[/url]
Honestly, 6*4.5 versus even 6*7 isn't that large of a size difference.  They all dwarf 35mm by a large margin.

Considering that this is in excess of the largest home printer's capacity/size, and from there it jumps to $3000+ drum printers...  6*6 or 6*7 are wasted for home use.(unless you do slides, where 6*6 is slightly better - but MF projectors are another $1000+ for a typical setup)  6*4.5 is a perfect compromise.

Plus, 6*4.5 gives you 32-33 shots on a 220 roll.  

A Pentax 645NII can be had used for well under $500 for just the body or about $1000 with a slew of accessories and lenses.  Mamiya also makes a nice one.  


***
One last thing...  The problems you are having are likely due to you needing to bracket the exposure in B&W and then merge the two to get a cleaned up image.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....775&hl=blending

This technique might make your shots come out like you want.  The trick appears to be to bracket in a tight group to look realistic.  No more than 3-4 steps between maximum and minimum.  A +1/0/-1 group would work very well, for instance.  You can go farther for high dynamic range, but it starts to look more like a print than a photograph.

Notice how clean this is.  In combination with a good camera, this can make very good results.  At least as clean as 35mm film.  Fuji has a camera that does this in-camera so action shots and such are possible.  The rest require a couple of shots and blending, which is pretty easy.  

I'd try this with your D80 first before you spend a lot of money.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:54:55 pm by Plekto »
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marianst

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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 07:09:12 am »

Thank you very much for your answer and effort. It is clear that I must learn much, but this is no problem, I want very much to photograph in MF format.

D80 is good indeed. It will be an additional tool. D80 does not offer that richness of tones I saw online in BW photographs. Those 6x6 BW photographs are extremely fine, comparing to D80.

Yes, I need to know.

1. I must buy a MF system. 1500$ or some more if it is fine.

2. I want to buy an excellent scanner.

3. I want to buy a minilab for BW photographs. From developing negatives until enlarging on sensible paper. I want to do the BW photographs from A to Z. I do not care for the numbers of my photographs. If I will live from now (now I am 36) 40 years, I want to have 5-7 fine photographs.

4. I am interested in landscape, street life., portraits, churches.

5. I do not care if the camera is heavy. I have two hands. And I can buy beyond the budget a fine tripod.

I saw Mamiya RZ 67 ProII. I saw Rolleiflex 2.8 FX. I saw Rolleiflex 6008 system. I saw Hasselblad 503. I saw Mamyia 7 rangefinder.

I am interested in all this chain, therefore I must be advised:

MF camera + lenses >>> processing film >>> enlarging BW/scanning MF film >>> printing

I think that every stage has its own parameters, therefore I must choose knowing.

It is easy to google, but I cannot google what I do not know or guess. And I want an organized advice.

If anyone understands, please, post. I will take in consideration any info and choose. Now we wre in April, I would like that in 2-3 months to buy ALL the things, i.e. MF camera, lens(es), scanner, BW minilab, printer dedicated.

Thank you again.
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Ken R

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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 08:38:54 am »

Check out the Pentax 6x7's. They can be found cheap and in excellent condition if you look. About 5 years ago I got one with a 90mm lens for $700 and It looked almost new (it had a non metering prism). I also got a 55mm lens and a 165mm for around $350 each.  The reason they can be had cheap is because there is no way to fit a medium format digital back to them a lot of people dont want them also they have a slow max flash sync of 1/30 sec. But for film, available light and studio work its great. Easy to use. The only thing to watch out for is the film advance. Misuse can can cause one to grind the gears of the mecanism. Other than that its fairly bulletproof.
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Plekto

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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 08:51:14 pm »

What's your total budget?

If you go with a major brand and larger than 6*4.5, you'll end up with a $5000 total bill rather quickly. 6 shots per year or 600 - it's about the same cost to set up, sorry to say.
 
At a minimum, you'll need an old-school enlarger and a dedicated setup/room to put it in.    Still, it can be done rather easily with B&W.   If you want optical/ darkroom printing, ditch the scanner entirely and go old-school.  Tons of good used equipment is out there for not a lot of money.

It's an either-or proposition with your budget.  Either you develop and enlarge manually or you get a scanner and print it on inkjet.  You can't do both unless you spend a LOT of money.  A minilab is right out unless you are talking about something like a Jobo Printlab. ($4-6K new, less used, still way out of your budget)

*****
Part 1 - Why Minilabs/etc are a bad idea
*****

If you want to go with a JOBO type setup, used:(this is the only thing I could find that remotely made sense as a minilab is usually a $200K+ enormous machine found in a typical printing business), then you're looking at 13" wide(max that will fit) and 15 long for 6x7 negatives.  This translates to the equivalent for a scanner at 3200 DPI of ~440DPI printed. The print size is limiting your effective resolution and digital scanning is a far better alternative for larger prints.  Unless you can exceed 440 lines per inch on your optical prints, you're better off with the scanner.   I doubt that the Jobo's optics are even this good, to be honest.  400+ lines at that size requires very expensive optics last I checked.

In fact, that basic Minolta scanner will do 35mm film at 4800DPI!  That's basically that JOBO's output exactly.  Jobo has stopped making these machines as a result.  Digital has essentially made optical printing an exercise in futility other than one-off optical prints with an enlarger.  A more expensive 4800 DPI MF scanner will spit out the equivalent of ~650LPI on photo paper.  Well beyond your ability to see.

Optical printing is dead unless you are doing enormous prints.  Machines like the JOBO are obsolete junk.   Either go digital/scanned or old-school unless you do this for a living and need 100 prints a day.

****
Part 2:  Recommendations.
****

6*7 is only good for two things over 6X6 or 6X4.5.
1:Really huge prints that are the size of a large oil painting.  
2:Projecting with a projector.

Therefore(sorry if this is long - heh) - If you want 6X7, then:

1: get a good rangefinder 6X7 like sneakyracer suggested.  The Pentax is a fine camera.  
2: get a Jobo tabletop or single reel type processing kit(only develops).  Or develop old-school with a darkroom.  A few hundred dollars to develop at home.
3: get a 6*7 projector used.
4: send the few prints you want printed out to a specialty place that will scan and print them in giant sizes.  Skip scanning and printing entirely since it makes no sense at all to spend thousands of dollars on equipment that will see little use.

$2500 - half of this is the projector and screen, BTW.  
Item number: 300213112077   Contact this buyer about this projector - nobody bid on it and he'd likely jump at a reasonable offer.  These are hard to find even listed anywhere.  Yes, that's $800-$1000 for a projector and screen.


6X6 on a budget:
1: Rolleiflex or Rolleicord TLR camera.(only real diff is the lens is one F-stop better on the 3-4x more expensive model).  Note - F 4.0-F6.0 is about where these lenses are clean anyways, so many smart people ignore the hype and get the 'cord.  SLR type 6X6s are silly money and out of the picture.
2: Set up a darkroom.
3: Get a 6X6 projector used.  $300 or less is common.  Square screen is cheaper as well $500 is easy to do here.
4: Send out for custom printing those few special shots.

$1000 total is simple to accomplish - with a used enlarger added as well, figure $1500.  

Add $1000 for the scanner and inkjet or dye-sub printer for prints.  HiTi makes the best desktop dye-sub home printers for the money.  Prints are beautiful.  They won't be better than 35mm, but if you have to put stuff in a photo album or hold in your hands, it's the cheapest option other than getting it printed at the local printers.

6X4.5  already covered.  I'd shoot this myself and go for a scanner and printer.  I still think this is the best option overall, since you can *just* afford an autofocus SLR type 645 camera.  This will work like your D80 but with huge film.  

P.S.
As I noted in a previous post, any MF film will exceed what the largest home inkjets will print if you scan it even at 3200DPI.  Therefore, anything over 645 is wasted unless you want vastly larger prints.  So save your money.  Get a 645 or an old manual camera and a projector.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 08:54:24 pm by Plekto »
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MarkL

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2008, 08:02:01 am »

Quote
6*7 is essentially a gimmick. Here's why: All of the printers and scanners have gone digital, so there's no way to effectively use those extra pixels short of roughly 20+ inch prints. The Minolta scanner does medium format at 3200DPI and at 400DPI dye-sub, that's an astounding 18 inches high and 21 inches wide at pixel for pixel quality(0% loss). Considering that anything that large will be on a wall and not viewed from 4 inches away, you can safely push that to 200DPI or the equivalent on an inkjet. Do you really need to print 36x42? A printer capable of printing that, even an inkjet, will cost you an arm and a leg as well. If you plan to print 8*11 or similar, then you don't need even medium format as the printer and scanner's limitations effectively make it moot.

Sorry, this just isn't true. Bigger film always wins because you need to enlarge less, just because you are scanning at higher and higher resolutions does not change is recorded on the film itself - it is not an infinite mine of detail and lenses are far from perfect. After all, bigger is why you shoot medium format right?

The absolute *best* thing the OP can do is get 6x7 if his scanner will be low end especially since he is shooting landscape and is concered about quality.


Marianst, I was in a similar situation to you and here is what I did:

1. Put the money into the camera

2. Send out you scanning some where that uses an imacon. Good scanners cost WAY too much and you are only shooting 10-20 frames a year anyway!! Why buy? You will get the best quality this way by far.

3. Buy the cheapest scanner you can that can scan film and use it for proofing and web jpgs (probably $100ish). I use an epson 4490.

Doing these things will give you the best possible quality at the lowest price given they way you will use it imo.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 08:03:27 am by MarkL »
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marianst

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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2008, 09:16:38 am »

Thank you all a lot for your kind answers.

My budget for the camera system itself can go even to a 3000$. It depends of the quality of the camera.

The photography is a passion, as I said, therefore I have no breakeven or such matters. I earn good enough, I have no Mercedes and no intention to go to an exotic and expensive travel.

It is clear that I must research. I do not know what to do. Perhaps the prices will be lower in 6 months? I might put a 7000$ max. until Christmas.

I want excellence. I want a good camera. Not for now, but for all my life. MF is fit to me. Someone advised me to buy a Linhof, but is not for me.

Sincerely I am enough with the digital cameras. I am only glad that I bought this Nikon D80 plus some good lenses and flash. Some friends want to buy a new P&S Fuji or G9 from Canon or etc. The total cost is not little, on the contrary.

Yes, 10-20 photos or even 1. Good. For this perhaps I will be needed to take 10 times more.

Someone told me this MF would be romantic etc. I must repeat that I saw with my eyes on web, web jpgs, BW 6x6 photographs. THey are incredible. The range of tones is wide, the pallete of greys is rich.

No idea regarding the camera. Unfortunately here in Romania there is not a store with used MF cameras. I must buy online or trip to Germany or so for buying.

Personally I would prefer a MF camera with interchangeable backs. It would be great to have one for BW and one for color.

As I said, if is heavy, does not matter at all. If I find a subject, I may use a tripod or use my hands.

I am aware that it is an entire complex of factors. I think of:

1. Mamiya RZ87 Pro

2. Rolleiflex 6008

3. Rolleiflex 2.8 FX or GX

4. Perhaps a Hasselblad 500,...,503 etc

Problem is that I no nothing about the lenses on these camerasm excepting Rolleiflex 2.8 TLR.

Yes, fine, I buy an used camera, a RZ. What about lenses, what price? Smae for the unknown Hasselblad. Or Rollei 6008.

Someone advised me seriously to buy a Bronica SQAI. Problem is that I never held in my hands any MF camera.

Excepting that Seagull from 20 years ago. People, I was living under communism. I never knew that is MF! It behave well, good BW photographs. Until one day when was a bit colder and a spring just broke. No service.

Yes, I might save and take a D3. But I believe that the MF offers much more than a FF digital camera.

Well...Thank you in advance for any direction.
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Plekto

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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 02:48:19 pm »

Quote
Sorry, this just isn't true. Bigger film always wins because you need to enlarge less, just because you are scanning at higher and higher resolutions does not change is recorded on the film itself - it is not an infinite mine of detail and lenses are far from perfect. After all, bigger is why you shoot medium format right?

This would make sense if he had a manual enlarger and was doing it himself.  There's no reason he can't, btw - and it's a good hobby to develop your own film.  I've done it myself for a print shop in the past.(huge in-wall platemaker with massive pieces of b/w film.)  Manually developing and printing can easily produce astounding results for not a lot of money.  Any anybody can easily learn to develop B&W film.  (a dedicated room helps immensely, though)   That shop had a roughly 4*12 room and we'd fit three or four people in it sometimes.  They basically sectioned off a 12*12 room into 8*12 and 4*12.  If you have a basement, such a setup is often easy to accomplish and it's fairly temperature controlled most of the time.  

The second you touch digital, though, the end result - the printing - is the limiting factor.  All the MP and scanning and nonsense is moot.  If your machine does 400LPI and only goes to say, 8.5*11, well, more data is worthless and essentially is thrown out.  Unless you print absolutely huge to compensate.  But that requires a large format printer.  Catch-22.  It's not like just buying that box of massive photo paper for special occasions and occasionally using a piece to make something to hang on the wall.

It's counter-intuitive, but that's just how it works.  Digital has to be calculated backwards.  Figure out the largest print, then your printer, then your scanner, and then your film or digital resolution.  It gets expensive fast.

Bigger film (6x7 vs other MF) is only better if you either have the money for a superb large format printer and a high-end scanner and so on($$$), or you enlarge manually.  

I second the recommendation to buy a good camera and send the stuff out if it's that few prints a year.  We had a dedicated setup because we processed dozens of pieces of film every afternoon.  But when you're doing it for a business/work, the cost is justified.  10 prints a year?  No way - enlarge manually if it's B&W or send it out.

***
back to the OP...
***
If your budget is that much, then you can get a very nice camera.  I'd consider 6*6 before 6*7, but in either case, you'd save a lot of money by just getting a cheap scanner for proofing as MarkL suggested and avoid the expense of all of that.  $1000 in a scanner and printer, even a more basic setup, buys a lot of gear these days.
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Misirlou

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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 03:13:04 pm »

If you can find a reputable dealer, you should be able to get a nice, reliable Hasselblad 500 series camera with a back and 80mm lens, and still have plenty of your budget left over. I've seen 500C/Ms with a back and T* 80mm go for as low as $500 recently. For light amateur use, a 500 ought to last a good long time without needing expensive repairs.
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James Godman

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 03:50:55 pm »

For the work that you described, I would buy a Mamiya 6 or 7.  Best of luck.
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joneil

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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 04:20:12 pm »

I still keep and occasionally use my Mamiya C330.  It is a twin lens reflex camera, and very sturdy.  I knew guys who at one time shot weddings and put food on the table using those C330 cameras.

    Used ones, in decent shape, do show up at fairly reasonable prices.  Might be a good way to ease into MF and really decide if that's the way you want to go.
joe
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marianst

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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 05:42:28 pm »

Joneil,

Not a bad idea..not at all. I might buy a Mamiya C330 and some lenses. I would practise for a time and photograph 90% in BW.

In my highschool I developed the MF film in the bathroom and got good BW negatives. Then I used to work together with a colleague's father, who had a darkroom and a fine enlarger. Manual all.

I was looking online to ebay and saw this

What do you think of such offer and price?

Thank you for your benevolent patience!!!!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 05:43:56 pm by marianst »
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Plekto

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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 07:39:20 pm »

The C330 isn't as well built or as good optics as a Rollei.  If you want a TLR 6X6, just get the Rollei  A older Rollei should be easy to get in Germany and it will hold its value fairly well.  Or you can go with a 6008 or similar - nothing bad there.

Modern features are good to have and mean much less wasted film.(of course, provided you have the skill - nothing will solve every bad shooting decision)

You did say you had a couple of thousand max, for the camera...   If you have the money, I'm not going to dissuade you from buying a Rollei or Hasselblad.

Note - the Bronicas can be had for a decent price lately.   Even a Bronica 6X7 shouldn't run you more than $600 or so in mint condition. Of course, I don't know much about Bronicas, so defer to others here.  But it is a modern camera capable of excellent results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronica
Stopped being made about four years ago, so they are rapidly falling out of use with wedding photographers and the like, due to their complete lack of support for digital backs.  Lots of good used gear is available as a result.

No autofocus, but pretty much everything else, according to Wiki.  The GS-1 is their 6X7 model.  The SQ is their square format line(hence the "SQ") These are even better deals.

I like that it's a typical MF "box" type camera, which means handheld(fast film of course or mirror locked up) and walking around is an option.  When most people see a camera like this being used, they immediately think it's a pro shooting it, so so can often get closer to the action if you want.  Heavy but surprisingly compact.

http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/gs1.asp
Some information.  I'm not an expert, but this seems like a poor mans's Rollei to me.  Lots of these are still in use by wedding photographers due to their reasonable cost.  The SQ series have nice features like autowinder and lighter weight, plus often faster optics.(someone here can explain why 6X6 tends to be sharper than 6X7 with the same lenses)

Ebay Item number: 330226319633   
He won't sell to outside of the U.S, but this is fairly typical.  Camera, couple of lenses, a back or two, and some extras for $1000.  (this one is actually a bit overpriced - $800 is more common)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 07:43:41 pm by Plekto »
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MarkL

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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2008, 04:34:23 pm »

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The second you touch digital, though, the end result - the printing - is the limiting factor.  All the MP and scanning and nonsense is moot.  If your machine does 400LPI and only goes to say, 8.5*11, well, more data is worthless and essentially is thrown out.  Unless you print absolutely huge to compensate.

I don't know what you have been reading but this is also incorrect. This has nothing to do with the dpi your printer will print at or what you scanner will scan at. Scan a 35mm frame and then a 6x7 frame on the same cheap scanner and print them and you will see a big difference even at 8x10 size. Whether you are scanning or enlarging traditionally, you are making an enlargement (small neg to bigger print) and less enlargement makes for less grain and sharper pictures. This is exactly the same reason why cropped sensors put such a demand on lenses.
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Plekto

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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2008, 06:18:34 pm »

Well, technically, any bad link in the chain can mess it all up with digital.

You are correct if you are talking about overall quality - less enlargement is better.   But even 35mm film has the ability to scan to very high resolutions without showing much grain.  Unless you print absolutely huge, you'll likely never notice the difference.  Certainly not with a normal desktop printer.  8.5*11 and mediocre inks pretty much makes MF a moot exercise.   Unless you spend some money on a large format printer, that is.   IME, of course - I just don't see an improvement at that size, and anything decent and large format would run the OP $2000+.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 06:19:18 pm by Plekto »
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marianst

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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2008, 02:17:59 am »

Well, thank you all for your thoughts and advices.

I decided to buy a Rolleiflex 2.8 or 3.5. It is a fine camera and for the next 2 years I will photograph a lot on film. Of course, D80 will be used as well. After this time, if I will need something better, I will upgrade. Perhaps to a 6x7 or 6x9. 6x9 seems very interesting. Now I will buy also a minilab for BW. Regarding the scanner AND printer, no problem, I work in IT and have access to fine devices.

All the best for you all!
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joneil

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Advices for choosing a MF camera
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2008, 08:41:46 am »

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The C330 isn't as well built or as good optics as a Rollei.  If you want a TLR 6X6, just get the Rollei  A older Rollei should be easy to get in Germany and it will hold its value fairly well.  Or you can go with a 6008 or similar - nothing bad there.
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-snip-

   I will not disagree with you, but that statement is a little like saying " a Rolls Royce is a better car than a Lincoln or a Caddy".  We should point out that the C330 is still a damn fine camera.  On the other end of the scale, I used to use a twin lens Yashica, and it  was a suprizingly good camera, for what it was.

    The Rollei will be a good choice, and I am not sure about other areas around the world, but in my neck of the woods, Ive seen good, clean, used C330s go for less than half the price of a similar condition Rollei, thus my suggestion
joe
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