What do we want

[Leonardo Barreto]

This corner of the forum has been escalating on the side of conflictive arguments -- that remind me of a place I used to post a lot, DPReview.com--, so I wonder if we can decide what do we want as posters to see here.

I can say what I want and see if it matches with others...

* Don't come here to read posts of people almost insulting other posters, it may be interesting the first time, but not really useful and boring if constant.

* I personally don't mind to know prices and promotions of new -or old- MF products, there is so little information that it is like having direct contact with distributors.

* I understand that other posters have problems with the stated above, so we can have some simple rules established -if they are not there already -

* If the majority wants to read dealers and manufacturers reps. posts, then the others should just please let it be or be a bit more relax about it.

* I don't want people to attack me personally, so I don't. My opinions ... those are fair game...

[condit79]

I think it might be interesting to see a sticky thread that would show current promotions by medium format equipment distributors.  And sure, we don´t want this to be inundated with this stuff, but it´s good to know when you´re looking for equipment.  

I think that debating things is good, but getting personal is totally unnecessary.  Period.

[Dustbak]

I actually like it the way it currently is. I don't mind the occassional press release, sales pitch, information, snide remark, personal attack (within reason & limit), obvious rant, useless remarks, joke, etc.. It shows we are all humans over here, that share a passion.

I hate rules, maybe I should have started with that. Everybody reads & interprets rules differently so what's the point.

I like the fact that everybody can post freely and speak his/her mind freely. I hope we can keep it that way.

I don't necessarily agree with everybody and I am sure not everybody does with me. I find it unique that this is possible in a world that seems to be going towards B&W more and more.

[thsinar]

My personal thoughts are that one has to come away from any "brand against another brand" attitude: dealers, distributors, manufacturers are quite under pressure here, to try to provide whatever information they have about the products they represent or sell, and I tend to believe that all present here, from any brand, are doing it quite honestly and with professionalism, with their skills and competences, but also and sometimes with their weaknesses and mistakes.

When one reads such heated posts like in the past days and weeks, it does serve nobody. I am ready to get some heat and blames, when I do wrong, but not and never to be insulted or treated with disrespect: this is something I can't understand nor accept. I am here because I want it to be like this, not because I have been asked or forced by somebody in the company I am working for. I do it for fun, to help, and eventually also to progress and learn from others.

I personally do not have any problem to answer questions, find information and try to help photographers working with other brands, and I did in the past, not for the sake to try to sell my product, but for the sake of knowledge sharing and better images.

If this could be understood and taken as a common value on this forum, it would make the time here easier and more enjoyable.

Thierry

edited for addendum:

... and an apology for having hurt/insulted or been disrespectful has never harmed anybody, in the contrary, usually people will forgive you.

[jonstewart]

I agree in principle with Leonardo, but I like the idea about a sticky for promos etc. This give users a choice as to whether they want to read it or not.

The other advantage is that it provides a fixed place for promos to appear. When promos are embedded in a thread it's very easy to miss them, unless you are reading the thread. I personally don't want to have to read all the threads in this (or any other) forum. I wouldn't have any time left to *DO* photography if I did   .

I do see a bit too many instances of discussion turning to argument; one reason I don't post much on dpreview too much, nor indeed go there a lot.

As Dustbak said, we all should have an entitlement to express our opinions, and to have others disagree with them and state their own, but after that to agree to disagree. Personal insults do *not* changes the facts.

Oh, and I'm as guilty as anybody else on some of these things - even if I don't post it, I might be thinking it!

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone" Failing that, have we all got our stones ready?  

Jon

[Leonardo Barreto]

Yes, that is exactly what I think, we don't want to cut the flow of information, opinion and ideas and definitively not doing so by going personal with posters.

I think it might be interesting to see a sticky thread that would show current promotions by medium format equipment distributors.  And sure, we don´t want this to be inundated with this stuff, but it´s good to know when you´re looking for equipment. 

I think that debating things is good, but getting personal is totally unnecessary.  Period.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183469\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Leonardo Barreto]

So you live by the strict rule of hating rules.

I have, as a rule this one: hate to hate anything.

What about if you put it like this: I love the freedom of having boundaries drawn in the most open way possible before encroaching in other peoples spaces?

I actually like it the way it currently is. I don't mind the occassional press release, sales pitch, information, snide remark, personal attack (within reason & limit), obvious rant, useless remarks, joke, etc.. It shows we are all humans over here, that share a passion.

I hate rules, maybe I should have started with that. Everybody reads & interprets rules differently so what's the point.

I like the fact that everybody can post freely and speak his/her mind freely. I hope we can keep it that way.

I don't necessarily agree with everybody and I am sure not everybody does with me. I find it unique that this is possible in a world that seems to be going towards B&W more and more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Dustbak]

So you live by the strict rule of hating rules.

I have, as a rule this one: hate to hate anything.

What about if you put it like this: I love the freedom of having boundaries drawn in the most open way possible before encroaching in other peoples spaces?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Uhuh... you are putting words in my mouth that I did not use. I have not stated anywhere to be living with the rule of hating rules. I just don't like rules. One of the reasons I already stated in that post.

You are talking about boundaries but who is going to establish those, according what principles, how do we know these are the right ones, who is going to enforce those?

How do you know you encroach peoples personal space? Since most people obviously have different frustration thresholds, etc..

It is not so easy to do that, I think the only boundaries that are really in place are those that people have in their own hearts, the boundaries you set for yourself and live by.

Maybe that is a bit naive to assume everybody has some form of civilisation, maybe...

[bradleygibson]

+1 for condit79's suggestion of a sticky thread.

I'd imagine there's a dilemma for distributors posting specials now as well--there's a no advertising policy, but folks generally like to know what's going on, what's on sale, etc.

It must be hard to decide when/if to post; others may be doing it etc.

We seem to be agreed that the information is welcome; a sticky thread would preserve the range of postings and offer people the choice of whether to read or not.

My 2¢...

-Brad

[James R Russell]

+1 for condit79's suggestion of a sticky thread.

I'd imagine there's a dilemma for distributors posting specials now as well--there's a no advertising policy, but folks generally like to know what's going on, what's on sale, etc.

It must be hard to decide when/if to post; others may be doing it etc.

We seem to be agreed that the information is welcome; a sticky thread would preserve the range of postings and offer people the choice of whether to read or not.

My 2¢...

-Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't understand why there is an issue with any of this.

If your selling your going to take some hits, founded and unfounded.

If you don't like the message you don't have to read it.  Censorship won't change anything.

If you are bias (who in the world doesn't have some bias) then it's silly to get upset if someone has a different opinion or is bias in the opposite direction.

This isn't religion, it's photography and though it's my calling, it is just that "my" calling and whatever I use, do, say, is only my personal opinion because last time I looked I only had one opinion.

When a dealer or a manufacturer rep says someone is bias against their product it's a laugher, because obviously that dealer or rep is bias toward the product they represent, if not then how the hell do they sell it effectively?

Personally, I think all of this is much to do about nothing, because the tone of this forum rarely if ever reaches the level of DP review.  

There are a lot of manufacturers that just don't want to come public because they don't want to take the heat, but I can promise being involved gives you a much different perspective than reading from the sidelines and taking notes.

Michael does a good job of moderating, because he let's it go until it gets caught in repitition, then he shuts down a thread without further commment.

That's probably the smartest way to handle disagreement, just let it roll down the line.

After all in an internet world, today's  hot topic gets buried on page 2 one week later.



JR

[NBP]

Personally, I think all of this is much to do about nothing, because the tone of this forum rarely if ever reaches the level of DP review.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely.

People who start silly/disruptive/pointless threads should rightly expect a bit of flak, tbf.
The majority of posters on this forum are smart, self reliant people who do have opinions and can/will/should articulate them.

Sure, sometimes it may get a bit heated - so what - we're professional photographers - the thick skin should be developed well enough from RL to cope with a bit of heat every now and again from people you don't know on the internet!
As long as is steers clear from obvious/deliberate personal attacks. (You should see one of the other [no photo]debating forums I go to   )

Personally, I value Yaya, Thierry & others input. I've never found them to be too bias or markety and I think we'd be quick to let them know if they crossed the line.

[dalethorn]

Manufacturers are the gods who make the equipment we use, which in some cases (those on a budget) leaves us at their mercy. And mfrs. sometimes make very cynical decisions that hurt their customers, so they often deserve the brickbats they get. Not so the customers who post here - despite any engrams they suffer, we can empathize, nearly all of us.

[bradleygibson]

Censorship won't change anything.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

Usually I'm in 100% agreement with you, but in this case I fail to see how posting advertising in a sticky thread amounts to censorship.

As you point out, it's not a huge deal, but if it helps some to feel less antagonistic (as seen in some recent threads here), to my mind it seems like a small price to pay.

-Brad

[eronald]

I'd say the dealers and reps are an asset to this forum, and should be left to do as they want - although maybe they should be issued some flak jackets

And yes, I like prices.

Edmund

[bradleygibson]

I'd say the dealers and reps are an asset to this forum, and should be left to do as they want - although maybe they should be issued some flak jackets

And yes, I like prices.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed--sometimes I feel bad for them, with all the heat that some of them take.  I appreciate their contributions immensely.

-Brad

[marc gerritsen]

no rules, regulations, bounderies, direction or guidelines are needed here.
I think a bunch of mature people will always oust the immature ones as has been proven in the past. Civility is at a pretty high level here and as Dustbak earlier said I also don't mind a snide remark or slightly overheated discussion from time to time, it ads to the entertainment.
As far as the sellers of equipment, let them inform us of their wares, so far so good.
no bombardement of useless advertising has happened yet.
Marc

[eronald]

As far as the sellers of equipment, let them inform us of their wares, so far so good.
no bombardement of useless advertising has happened yet.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They have rather too little to advertise- such is the sorry state of digital MF.

[James R Russell]

They have rather too little to advertise- such is the sorry state of digital MF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ronald,  sometimes I think you need an Iphone with a calculator.

Right now there are 5 digital back makers (6 if you count megavision), most backs go on a dozen new and legacy cameras, some like Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei and Contax have large to huge lens lines at just about every price point, from hundreds of dollars to close to 10 grand per lens.

Backs range in prices from 10 k (less if you include the ZD) to $30,000 and have combinations of micro lenses, no microlenses, low to medium iso, 1.14 to 1.24 crops and square.

Even though Mamiya/Phase, Rollei/Leaf/Sinar and Hasselblad are the only curent medium format platforms that accept digital backs, there  of Bronicas, Fujis, RZ, RB, V systems, Contax, that all accept even the latest digital backs, some like contax and the RZII with a complete digital interface.

Then you toss in the Alpas, Cambos and dozens of technicle cameras and the options are limitless.

Each back manufacturer has at least one if not two proprietary software suites for tethering and processing and three of the manufacturers, Phase, Mamiya and Leaf have files that work in almost every 3rd party processor without conversion.

Everybody loves to beat on medium format, mostly because of price (and though I would like to see the price come down), no other digital format camera manufacturer other than the mfd back makers are solely concentrated on the professional photographer.

With new cameras you have price points from 5,000 for a kit to $10,000 though once again there is absolutley no real shortage of legacy medim format cameras so buying a used V system, contax or RZ will probably keep working for another dozen or so years and the price has dropped so far on most of these cameras, the buy in is 1/2 of what they were new.

BTW"  Nothing in the photogrpaher world is 1/2 price as to what it was 10 years ago.

Some of the new cameras do things that the old ones don't and some things better (some things not).

Still, nothing to talk about, heck Leaf sells three sizes of digital backs and sensors, Phase 5, Sinar two (I think),  Hasselblad 4 (I think) and Mamiya 1.

JR

[Morgan_Moore]

can decide what do we want as posters to see here.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

PRICE is a factor in choosing MF kit which is surely the main focus of the board - helping people choose what to spend thier money on (or not)

Else all the chat becomes purely theoretical and every thread would say buy an ALPA, an ARCA, a HY6 and an HD3 with a 28 too

(thats what Id get if I won the lottery)

Therefore some dealer input would seem most relevant - IMO the balance is currently therefore near right

This is the net - all readers with a brain will be using thier own 'nouse' to evaluate the quality and agenda of each posters information before acting on it

At least the dealers use signatures so we can see thier 'agendas'

S

[Leonardo Barreto]

So the answer to: "What do we Want", seams to be:

"no rules, regulations, bounderies, direction or guidelines are needed here."

 And, on the other side, we do want reps and dealers to continue posting commercial announcements with price availability and systems "abilities and advantages". --and their opinions--

... so, how much is a P25 with free AFD Mk 3 ?  

have a nice rest of the weekend and relax...