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Author Topic: For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???  (Read 12039 times)

sonamair

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« on: February 11, 2008, 09:49:19 pm »

Someone who sets up Epson machines advised me to use 240 or 360 DPI images to print on my 11880, rather then a 300 DPI image because of the way the Epsons process this info...any truth to this and why?
Thanks
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Schewe

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 12:01:57 am »

Quote
Someone who sets up Epson machines advised me to use 240 or 360 DPI images to print on my 11880, rather then a 300 DPI image because of the way the Epsons process this info...any truth to this and why?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The actual method of producing the Epson's variable droplet size is an exotic error diffusion algorithm. To the driver, it really doesn't matter whether the resolution is a mathematical divisor.

That used to be the common wisdom, however, Bruce Fraser has written that it's far more useful to use the REAL resolution without resampling and letting the PPI fall where it may for a given image size. So, resize without resampling to get the print size you want and let the actual resolution fall where it may–as long as you are in the range of 180-480PPI.
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gdanmitchell

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 12:24:51 am »

Quote
The actual method of producing the Epson's variable droplet size is an exotic error diffusion algorithm. To the driver, it really doesn't matter whether the resolution is a mathematical divisor.

That used to be the common wisdom, however, Bruce Fraser has written that it's far more useful to use the REAL resolution without resampling and letting the PPI fall where it may for a given image size. So, resize without resampling to get the print size you want and let the actual resolution fall where it may–as long as you are in the range of 180-480PPI.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, I was sort of shocked to hear this on the Camera to Print video, after thinking far too hard about uprezzing and so forth in the past. I tried it and the results are - as you of course said they would be - just fine.

I'm convinced.

Dan
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G Dan Mitchell
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Panopeeper

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 12:36:04 am »

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The actual method of producing the Epson's variable droplet size is an exotic error diffusion algorithm. To the driver, it really doesn't matter whether the resolution is a mathematical divisor

That's ok for most cases, but what if there is no "native" resolution, all pixels will be calculated anyway and one can chose the size without penalty within certain limits. What resolution should be created?

This is the case with panorama creation: the source images get warped and every pixel of the final pano is an interpolation; one can choose more or less pixels, there is no "natural" size.
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Gabor

jbrembat

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 05:40:23 am »

I know that large format Epson printers use a PPI value of 360.
I am not sure if 11880 follows this rule, you can check it.

If 360 is the right value then 180=360/2 may be good enough, 360 is the best.
The 240 value is a good value for Epson desktop printers (240=720/3), but 360 is better and 720 is the best.

Sampling is performed before dithering, so the best thing to do is resampling to the driver PPI value.
Dithering may alleviate artifacts apparence from printer driver resampling more or less.

To check the 11880 PPI go to my web site and download PrinterData (Windows application).
http://www.photoresampling.com/index_eng.php

Jacopo
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Patrick Cox

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 10:19:19 am »

Quote
The actual method of producing the Epson's variable droplet size is an exotic error diffusion algorithm. To the driver, it really doesn't matter whether the resolution is a mathematical divisor.

That used to be the common wisdom, however, Bruce Fraser has written that it's far more useful to use the REAL resolution without resampling and letting the PPI fall where it may for a given image size. So, resize without resampling to get the print size you want and let the actual resolution fall where it may–as long as you are in the range of 180-480PPI.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff,
If I can't get the image size I need at 180 PPI, then what PPI should I resample to?  180 for the least resampling?  Or something higher?

Thanks!
Pat
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Wayne Fox

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 04:18:34 pm »

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Jeff,
If I can't get the image size I need at 180 PPI, then what PPI should I resample to?  180 for the least resampling?  Or something higher?

Thanks!
Pat
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You might try a 200% increase, which would take advantage of bicubic resampling.  That then becomes your new native size ... sharpen appropriately then send that to the printer and let the driver create the final size.

This is how I interpreted what Jeff taught in Camera to Print, and have tried it a few times with good success.
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Schewe

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 05:40:48 pm »

Quote
You might try a 200% increase, which would take advantage of bicubic resampling.  That then becomes your new native size ... sharpen appropriately then send that to the printer and let the driver create the final size.

This is how I interpreted what Jeff taught in Camera to Print, and have tried it a few times with good success.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yep...just about any decent capture (not so much a scan that has super high frequency film grain) can be upsampled 200% without too much effort. A really good capture may be able to go up to 400% if there is no camera shake but you usually must go through some more exotic processing routines. I've written about upsampling in this article: [a href=\"http://www.digitalphotopro.com/tech/the-art-of-the-up-res.html]The Art of the Up Rez[/url].

Quote
Sampling is performed before dithering, so the best thing to do is resampling to the driver PPI value.

While the nominal print head resolution is often stated as "360 DPI", that's a misnomer...in point of fact, the 78/9800 (including the 48 & 38 series) has a real head resolution of 180 nozzles/inch. The 11880 has 360 nozzles/inch. But the effective resolution actually comes from the stepper motors and the ability to make dots inline as the heads move back & forth.

If you don't care what the real print image size is, sure, you can resize without resampling to get a real 360PPI...actually, because of the Nyquist Theorem, it's actually useful to print out at 480PPI (beyond the real output resolution of the head). Note there are potential interference issues with Epson at certain higher resolutions.

However, it's wrong to characterize the Epson driver as doing "resampling" to make it's dots...it doesn't resample. The error diffusion halftoning is far more complex and exotic. As a result, you really DON'T gain any real advantage to actually resample images merely to get to some magic number. In the case of downsampling you are throwing useful pixels away and in the case of upsampling, you are making up pixels out of essentially nothing (just the surrounding pixels).

So, if the image size you want is 11 x 14 exact, and the resulting resolution is 269 pixels/inch, print it at 269 PPI–don't resample it to get it to 240 or 360. You are either throwing pixels away or making them up...

As for the "native resolution" of your image...you'll always have an actual pixel dimension of x number of pixels by x number of pixels. Photoshop only applies a size and PPI as a metadata tag stating the ratio (x" X x" @ X PPI). The main point is if the PPI is between 180 & 480 PPI, DON'T resample merely to get some exact PPI for the driver. It's simply not worth it. You would be far better off using your REAL PIXELS and sharpening for the final PPI (that's what output sharpening is all about).

It also means you DON'T need to keep different iterations of a file laying around with different sizes and resolutions as you can store the sharpening in layers that you turn off/on as you print different sizes. It's the basis of the concept of using Lightroom as a print engine...and when LR gets better output sharpening, you may not even have to go into Photoshop for final output sharpening!

If you _DO_ need to upsample, then do it bigger than you "need" and apply all the post upsample processing that gives you a good upsampled output.
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jeffok

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2008, 01:16:38 am »

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It's the basis of the concept of using Lightroom as a print engine...and when LR gets better output sharpening, you may not even have to go into Photoshop for final output sharpening!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, for those of us using Lightroom exclusively would you therefore say that the best strategy generally speaking (ie: between 180-480ppi) would be to uncheck the Print Resolution box in the print module and let Lightroom print at native ppi?
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Schewe

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 01:37:42 am »

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Jeff, for those of us using Lightroom exclusively would you therefore say that the best strategy generally speaking (ie: between 180-480ppi) would be to uncheck the Print Resolution box in the print module and let Lightroom print at native ppi?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Absolutely...in fact Troy Gaul, Lightroom engineer put that in for me because I was concerned over Lightroom 1.0's requirement of ALWAYS using the set PPI regardless of the native PPI. That was added in Lightroom 1.1 update.

Ideally, keeping a single Master Image File in Lightroom (even if you have to take it into Photoshop for certain things and bring it back to Lightroom for printing) is a major benefit of Lightroom.
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jbrembat

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2008, 04:16:57 am »

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However, it's wrong to characterize the Epson driver as doing "resampling" to make it's dots...it doesn't resample. The error diffusion halftoning is far more complex and exotic
As I said samplig is before dithering.
Just a simple explain to make things clear to anyone:

 1 - the driver do a sampling of the image. The sampling rate is PPI value based.
 2-  the driver get a pixel color from step 1
 3-  now, and only now the dithering. The color must be simulated with a pattern of dot inks. This step is for inkjet printers as there is not an ink with the color to be rendered.

Step 1 to 3 are iterated.

If you give the right PPI value to the driver, for each iteration the sampled pixel is a new image pixel. In that case there is no resampling.
If you give a PPI/2 value the same pixel is used 2 times, if you give PPI/3 value the same pixel is used 3 times.... and so on. In that case there is a resampling.

What about giving a value greater than PPI value: some pixel will be discarded.
So if you upsample to a value bigger than PPI value, you get interpolated pixel added to the original ones. The resuult will be: throw away some original pixel and keep some interpolated pixel. Not good.

Jacopo
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sonamair

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 01:39:19 am »

Wow,
Thank you for the interesting discussion. I do admit I am still confused, but it seems like the take home message is not to create pixels. I have printed out my first ever 40 by 60 inch photos on the Epson 11880.upsizing old 1st generation Nikon SLR JPEG digital files that already had been up-sized to 300 DPI and were sitting around my hard drive as 18 by 12 inch TIFF photos..I then used photoshop to create 300 DPI 40 by 60 inch files from these primitive old files...the funny thing is the output looks amazing...even though it was not supposed to with all that adding in of extra phantom pixels.

I will be soon shooting a 1Ds Mark III ( This week ) and RAW ,with more native pixels for this beast of a printer...

So to be more cook book then...What would be the ideal workflow for best output for large prints using both my old JPEG to TIFF stored files as well as my soon to be bigger Raw files
Or is that too much to ask in this forum

As always a huge thank you for all of your expert input in this complex and interesting and very helpful discussion
Howie
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Patrick Cox

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 07:51:22 am »

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Ideally, keeping a single Master Image File in Lightroom (even if you have to take it into Photoshop for certain things and bring it back to Lightroom for printing) is a major benefit of Lightroom.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff,
What is the major benefit of printing from LR?  I believe I have read people complain about printing from Photoshop CS products but my experience has been that it is pretty easy with good results, once you know the drill.  Is the benefit that your images are right there, ready to print?  As you say, you still need to run them through Photoshop so I am trying to understand why I should then print from LR vs just printing while in CS2.

Thanks!
Pat
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jbrembat

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2008, 03:50:40 am »

Epson wrote:

All Epson large format printers use 360dpi as the input resolution (this is the resolution data is rasterized at)

As for the Epson desktop products, they rasterize data at 720dpi

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pro10a/pro10aps.pdf

Jacopo
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Schewe

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 03:04:22 pm »

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As for the Epson desktop products, they rasterize data at 720dpi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Actually, if you download the PDF and read it, it says in Note 2: "All Epson large format printer use 360dpi as the input resolution (this is the resolution data is rasterized at)"

Yes, it uses 360dpi (in so much as the driver is using it as the basis of the beginning of the dither process) but no, it doesn't RESAMPLE to 360...

This is the type of "partial" information that leads to a lot of the confusion in the industry...you'll note that the way it's written, it's wrong anyway...before the dither, the data is in pixels/inch (or pixels/CM) and since no DOTS are actually formed (they are 3.5 picoliter, variable sized droplets) you can't really even assign a REAL DPI to the Epson printers anyway...

So, nope, sorry...still not "right".
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jbrembat

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For Epson: use multiples of 120 DPI ???
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 03:10:39 pm »

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it doesn't RESAMPLE to 360

If the sampling is at 360 dpi (PPI is the correct term) and the image is not 360 PPI, this is a resampling.
Dithering as I tried to explain is the process to simulate the color of the sampled pixel. You have a strange idea about dithering.

Jacopo
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