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Author Topic: Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs  (Read 107871 times)

Frank Doorhof

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Canon 1DSMK3 test image compared to Phase Backs
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2007, 02:55:38 pm »

True, horses for courses
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Schewe

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« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2007, 03:15:50 pm »

Quote
Every test reflects the abilities and intentions of those who set it up. It Capture Integration are willing to do one and show the results, they should be thanked nicely for the effort, maybe informed politely of procedural mistakes, but I don't think they need free psychological counselling from an unlicensed practitioner
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Uh, ok...thanks for the flawed and pretty much useless test guys...

There, that help?

The fact is that the original test is tucked nicely into a friggin' NEWSLETTER that one must scroll midway down the page to FIND...and then the post says "We've been testing the 1Ds Mark III and comparing it to the current line of Phase One Digital Backs. The full results will be posted to our website later this month when our newly revamped website launches." So, not only have they not posted the "results of the test" they're touting the fact that they WILL post the result, when they launch their new web site. Uh, huh...and that is a favor to the industry how?

All they did was shoot the same scene with 4 different cameras and process them at default. Ok, thanks for spending the pixels guys, but next time you might want to do it in a slightly more scientific manner and make the whole thing just a tiny bit LESS self-serving and not make people wade through an entire newsletter only to find that the FULL RESULTS OF THEIR TESTS will be posted "in the future".

As I said, I didn't know these guys from Adam...but I do now. And, I'm not impressed with either their test or the way they run their business. And while they may not need psych counseling, they sure could use a hand coming up with useful testing proceeders...and how to deal with the public.
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203

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« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2007, 04:08:54 pm »

I also agree with Mark and some others here. Seems this site is filled with the same 10 or so guys going at it about the same stuff in almost every thread. Bagning their heads against the wall pixel peeping. And nearly none of it has to do with making your images any better out here in the real world - where people print their images on paper.

I see people making references to dpreview etc. as if this banter is much better, but I am afraid it is usually not much better. (At least not lately.)

Still, I guess the idea is to talk about the backs in a forum called "Medium Format Digital Backs and Photography." But what about the "and Photography" part?

Where is there on the web to discuss photography in a less technically obsessed way? (read: less gear heads, more people actually interested in the IMAGE) With real commercial photographers? Anyone??
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 04:10:02 pm by 203 »
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David Anderson

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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2007, 04:14:12 pm »

Well said Tmark !
(Schewe, is it really all that bad ?  )

When I speak to my clients about cameras, megapixels, raws, color space or the medium format digital back vs. the new Canon 1DsIII they tend to change the subject or glaze over.
And who could blame them ?  
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Camdavidson

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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2007, 06:04:23 pm »

Dave Gallagher and Capture Integration are well known in the industry.  

Personally, I've purchased gear from them, rented backs and have called several times about Capture One and they always helped me.

I like them.  I like their attitude.  I like their ability to share information freely.  

I am a happy customer and will continue to buy from them regardless of what is said on this forum or if someone knows or does not know them.

They are good people.
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TMARK

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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2007, 06:31:14 pm »

John and 203,

There is an invite only forum that is poplulated by the big boys in commercial photography (OK, not the Kleins and Meisels, but the big money commercial shooters).  Discussions involve lighting, billing, bad clients, good MUA/Assistants/Retouchers, things that break, and some critique of editorial images.  Too bad I've not been invited.

I have a new rant.  I apologize in advance for the length, but I'm done for the year.  I am usually quite constrained but I'm feeling all goofy now that I'm free for two weeks!

When film was King and Kodak employed all of Rochester, the would be and real scientists shot color charts, resolution charts, brick walls, testing testing testing like you see now a days on the web. These guys were usually very smart and somewhat articulate.  The thing was, you only had to interact with these people at the film counter at Calumet where the discourse was civil due to the face to face nature of the interaction.  You could also just run away from them as they blathered on about a fourth color layer being added to an obscure Fuji film only available in Japan.  With digital, these same scientists and would be scientists are shooting test charts and step wedges, as well as legions of morons who really really like to take pictures of birds*, and posting their opinions and "findings" on the impersonal and isolating interweb, where there is no reality check.  I swear its like an Aspergers syndrome support convention.

*(Disclaimer:  I'm not knocking nature photography)

And as long as I'm ranting, the syntax used by the testers in discussing photography reads like a legal brief or a transcript of a Break Out Session at a chemical engineering convention.  Example:  Poster 1:  "The Canon 85 1.8 USM is just as sharp as the 85 1.2 L USM at the same or similar F stop."
Poster 2:  "Direct me to some proof, a suitable URL.  Otherwise we cannot take your statement as valid".  

Get over it!  Photography is about mood and emotion.  It is not linear.  No proof is required.  A soft image is not "invalid". A good image is one you remember, mainly due to the emoitional experience you had when you first saw it, regardless of shadow noise or if the print is a few points too magenta.  Look at Sarah Moon's work.  All emotion, Polaroid Type 55 film, out of focus, amazing.

OK, I can't stop myself.  I think we may come to the point where the scientists and other amateurs have better gear than commercial photographers. I finished a corporate portrait shoot for an insurance company on Wall street and saw no less than two 1ds3s clutched tightly in the grubby little hands of some overly bundled tourist types overburdened by their big LowePro backpacks.  They hunch to the ground, brace themselves for the shot of Trinity Chruch, take it, chimp, and walk away real fast like.  I also note than some people on this forum do not appear to make a living from photography but have MFDB just the same. That's fine, but why?  Ego? Anal perfectionism?  I saw a guy at Prospect Park shooting an Afd2 with a Leaf 65.  he told me he likes flowers and "image quality".  I am jealous. Not afraid to admit it.  I would like a 1ds3 and my very own Hy6 or AFi7 but I refuse to cary that kind of cost on a depreciating asset, as a business owner. Too much pressure to earn, what with a kid in private school, expensive health insurance, and crappy disability insurance.  It irks me that some clown is looking at uninspired 122 meg 16 bit tiffs of a yellow belly sap sucker or a cliche street scene on his Dell while I'm too cheap to drop $8k on on a 1ds3, much less $12k for an A22.  (I'm not that cheap, I did just buy some new lighting (Pro7A 2400, Pro7S 1200 and a D4 to replace my Pro6 Freeze packs and Acutes).  The only camera gear I own are the 1ds2, 5D, RZ67, Afd, and Mamiya 7, and I feel I have too much crap.  The Mamiya 7 is the only camera that doesn't earn its keep, but I keep it out of love.

I have no more jobs booked this year and am taking the wife and kid to France for two weeks. I'm taking a Mamiya 7 and 65mm lens and 20 rolls of 400nc. No chargers, no laptop, no cards or card readers.  See you guys next year and don't let that chroma noise in that ASA 50 P45+ file you shot inside a changing bag then pushed 10 stops in C1 get you too down.  I'm sure the next crop of backs is just around the corner!
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2007, 06:32:05 pm »

TMARK, Many true words, but...

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My advice: If you are a hobbiest, have at it.  You have no ROI to think about and no overhead keeping you up at night.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, as amateur it is even worse, we have no money at all coming in from a camera. We also shoot less frames and with that in mind it is rather mindblowing amazing how much $$ good quality images from digital cost us compared to film did (and frank difficult only shoot film nowadays)...  


Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 06:35:45 pm by Anders_HK »
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TMARK

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« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2007, 06:46:26 pm »

Andres,

True, film outside of the major photo centers can be difficult and expensive to process.  Here in NYC there are at least 7 labs that do good work between 24th and 17th Streets.  There are many more labs around with which I have no experience, but I have heard good things.

But as an amatuer you have the ability to sell your ZD and still put food on the table and buy the kids their allergy meds and pay their $25k a year tuition.  I have to squeeze every penny, keep overhead low, keep a positive cash flow.

Let me tell you a story:  I started shooting in 1989.  I was young and STUPID.  I blew every penny I made and decided that the photo business was the problem, not my bad business habits.  In reality, I over extended myself and didn't treat it like a business.  I then went to law school, practiced law until I couldn't stand it, and went back to shooting, resolved to never let it happen again.  Like in Gone with the Wind, Scarlet O'Hara swears she will never be poor again.  It was just like that, but in New York, and I wasn't picking cotton or wearing a dress.
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Toby1014

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« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2007, 06:53:11 pm »

TMARK - MARKT - Welcome back
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TMARK

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« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2007, 07:00:20 pm »

Toby,

I'm not Mark Tucker.  I'd give my real name etc but clients will google your name when considering you for a job.  being associated with forums is not all that good for your career, hence the mass requests to be "unregistered" by many of the pros who used to frequent LL, including Mark and Ron P.
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2007, 08:57:24 pm »

Quote
Dave Gallagher and Capture Integration are well known in the industry.   

Personally, I've purchased gear from them, rented backs and have called several times about Capture One and they always helped me.

I like them.  I like their attitude.  I like their ability to share information freely. 

I am a happy customer and will continue to buy from them regardless of what is said on this forum or if someone knows or does not know them.

They are good people.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can also vouch for Dave Gallagher and his integrity. I also have purchased gear from his company and had the pleasure of meeting Dave getting to know him better. Insinuating ill intention from his side is very offensive to me. Some of you guys are making certain that nobody will post any pictures on this or any other forum and that the only way you will be able to compare your camera to any DB will be if you purchase digital back yourself. I do not see it as a real possibility neither.
One thing that is alway omitted in all this discussions about DB vs DSLR is that most if not all medium format digital back users have extensive real life experience with with DSLR's cameras.
We all own it and use it as needed. Unfortunately the same can not be said about DSLR's users and their experience with high end digital backs since most of them consider themselves lucky if they had a chance to take couple shoots during Calumet open days. Slam Dave Gallagher for his attempt to show you the difference between the systems and stay happy forever after, but please remember that this is MFDB Forum and non of us comes to 35mm Forum to prove anything to you.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2007, 09:20:05 pm »

And which 35mm forum might that be?
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2007, 09:26:28 pm »

Cameras Lenses and Shooting Gear
99% info about 35mm DSLR's
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2007, 09:34:26 pm »

Quote
Cameras Lenses and Shooting Gear
99% info about 35mm DSLR's

And Canon G9 digicam, and Leica M8 and Olympus E-3 (4/3 format) and other things too, including occasional MF threads...

The whole point of this thread was to discuss a comparison between 1Ds-III and MFDB. Why are you surprised when such discussion happens? Do you feel threatened by the topic? If this topic bores you, read another thread.
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2007, 09:51:37 pm »

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And Canon G9 digicam, and Leica M8 and Olympus E-3 (4/3 format) and other things too, including occasional MF threads...

The whole point of this thread was to discuss a comparison between 1Ds-III and MFDB. Why are you surprised when such discussion happens? Do you feel threatened by the topic? If this topic bores you, read another thread.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are right again. I feel threatened by the topic and the intention of my post was to prevent you to discuss comparison between 1DS-III and MFDB.
And you are certainly right  that I am bored with this topic and by now angry with myself for wasting my time on this idiotic conversation. Do not forget to shot the lights off when the last working photographer leaves this forum.
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TMARK

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« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2007, 10:15:20 pm »

J. Wienke:

Smart assed teenager or Aspergers suferer?  My bet's on smart ass!

Not to put words in Andre's mouth, but I will anyway:  this forum should be about photography and MFDB.  For whatever reason, probably low sales volume and high price, information on MFDBs is not readily available on the web.  Not many people own MFDB or use them extensively.  So if you make a living as a photographer and have to use these klutsy and complex systems, it is nice to see that people in your shoes are suffering through the same problems and can offer advice and information that is relevant to your profession and that might enable you to avoid costly and reputation ruining mistakes.  For these reasons resolution charts, step wedges, odd programs that analyze raw data without producing images, is not appreciated.  Conversely, posts that cover the mundane, such as SK Grimes custom making a right hand grip for an RZ or whether to RAID or not, are valuable to our businesses.  Comparing the ds3 to MFDB answers a question that most pros want to know:  is the upgrade worth it?  Is it at least reasonably comparable to the A22/P25/ZD/eMotion 22 or is it a a 1ds2 with five extra megapixels? That is why this thread is here, and that is why MFDB users look at it.  Real world impact.  That being said, the geeky and aggressive attitude displayed in some posts about f stops, and the disparagement of Capture Integration (who are well known and respected) is not useful.  There is no deception or trickery:  Most anyone considering a Phase back can figure out that there will be defraction on a 35mm sensor at f16.  No big deal.  Eventually most MFDB users will go to their dealer or a friend and try one on for themselves under whatever conditions suit them.  That being said, this thread is relevent but the acusations and endless discussions of testing conditions is not helpful to most readers and clogs the net.  Its like not searching before making a post asking a question, which I think you have discussed in the past.

Happy shooting with you Canon or M4 and stay safe this holiday.  I'm serious.  I worry about you guys over there.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2007, 10:48:44 pm »

Quote
J. Wienke:

Smart assed teenager or Aspergers suferer?  My bet's on smart ass!

...

Comparing the ds3 to MFDB answers a question that most pros want to know:  is the upgrade worth it?  Is it at least reasonably comparable to the A22/P25/ZD/eMotion 22 or is it a a 1ds2 with five extra megapixels? That is why this thread is here, and that is why MFDB users look at it.  Real world impact.  That being said, the geeky and aggressive attitude displayed in some posts about f stops, and the disparagement of Capture Integration (who are well known and respected) is not useful.

I'll agree that the disparagement of the CI guys went a bit farther than necessary, but I think that the choice to use two substantively different RAW converters with radically different default settings and the choice to shoot the Canon at f/16 are substantive flaws in what otherwise would be an informative and useful comparison. And the railing against the existence of this thread and the not-so-subtle invitation for the non-MFDB shooters to go back to the "35mm forum" and quit bothering the real working photographers by Andre is no more well-mannered than the personal attacks made against the Capture Integration people.

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Happy shooting with you Canon or M4 and stay safe this holiday.  I'm serious.  I worry about you guys over there.

Thanks. I never got an M4 though; we still had M16s until just before I was medevaced. While downrange, I used an Olympus SP-350, as carrying 40 lbs of Canon gear (2 bodies, 7 lenses, flashes, etc. in a Lowepro pack) was a bit much in addition to 35 pounds of body armor and attached gear (magazines, ammo, flashlight, camelback, etc) another 20 pounds or so for aid bag, (I'm a medic) plus weapon and miscellaneous other stuff.

BTW, I'm 37 years old. I have a son who's a teenager...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 10:50:56 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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Don Libby

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« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2007, 10:52:33 pm »

I’ve stayed away from even reading this thread till this evening, guess I was just bored, now I wish I hadn’t open it.

I’ve written a letter to Dave to first thank him for the interesting thread and remind to him that no good deed every goes unpunished.

I use MF for my landscape work and 35mm (currently 1Ds II) for nature (which includes wildlife), each has its own specific task.  While not totally interested in the outcome of the test CI did (I’m already on the list to get the new III) I am nevertheless glad they did it.  

It appears that some have decided to exercise creative reading in Dave’s response; it seems that he stated that his company sells both Phase One and Canon.  

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To clear up the confusion let me state the following:

We are resellers of Phase One and of Canon. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It’s only natural that a company selling both the medium format and 35 mm systems conduct such a test.  Was the test perfect? No but then no test ever is.  Was it unbiased?  I believe it was.  Am I a client of CI?  Yes, proudly and will continue to be.

One last question that I’ll ask and answer – am I tired of this entire thread?  
Oh hell yes!  I’ve got work to do so I’m gone.


don

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« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2007, 10:54:41 pm »

To the egomaniacs, who are forced by their compulsive obsession disorder to read a thread, even though they have to throw up while doing so

1. yes, it is an MFDB forum, BUT the opening post was not about MFDBs but about the comparison between MFDBs and a 35mm camera,

2. to be sure, the same post was placed on the Digital Cameras, Backs and Shooting Techniques forum as well; in other words, the subject was intended for a broader layer of participants than this forum,

3. I don't think anybody has stated that the 1DsMkIII is better than any of the MF cameras in the comparision, not even that it were equal, so I don't know, by what the egomaniacs feel threatened,

4. the objections against the phony "comparison" were, that it amounted to a sales action but not an honest effort,

5. obviously incorrect, obfuscating statements like We intentionally did not change any contrast or sharpening in these files so as to leave them as close to native as possible did not help to dispers the objections,

6. the reluctance to post the raw files contributes to the bad feeling,

7. the reluctance of the egomaniacs to deal with the objections is telling on its own.

It is not surprizing, that the phony arguments based on the omnipotent superiority of some MF shooters against direct comparisons on a level field makes tem appear a bit arrogant.
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« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2007, 11:02:28 pm »

I've known Lance for many years now.  When I first began looking into digital backs (coming from 4x5 film) he helped tremendously in the process.  I took over a year to make my decision and he never pressured me to make a move until I was ready.  What made me trust Lance and his approach was that he put all of the available solutions in front of me (literally at my front door) and let me make the decision after testing one back against the other.  Everyone has their comfort level or criteria for equipment.  Lance was an informed assistant to the decision process.  That's exactly what he's done here.  Just putting the info out there so people can see what the options are.  Obviously he makes a living selling this stuff but he does it in a way that is honest and thorough so you know exactly what you are getting and you always have a resource in him after the sale.  On more than one occasion I got a return phone call from him within minutes while he was on vacation, and not about a sale, but about after sale tech support.  Now that he has joined the well established Capture Integration team I'm sure he's going to help a lot of people make the right decision for themselves, whatever that may be.  Now lets get back to making photographs!
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