Topic: The name of our DB (Read 76452 times)

Wim van Velzen · « **Reply #100 on:** November 20, 2007, 05:17:32 pm »

Can one really consider the people voting in this poll to be representative for the entire MFDB using world? Come on.
[ and yes, I would have said this too when I would have owned a Phase One back... ]

brumbaer · « **Reply #101 on:** November 20, 2007, 05:34:30 pm »

Let's start a flame war, come one. I could contribute something about Macs and PCs or Nikon and Canon or how about Mercedes and BMW

Seriously.

I do not know whether the data reflects the real numbers of backs in use. The numbers are too low to be of any statistical relevance.

Just image somebody posting on a Phase/Sinar/Leaf or whatever forum about this forum being helpful.

You will get 10 new users all using the same brand. Which will tip the balance without an increase in sold backs.

The same is true about people not using the internet, not knowing about this forum, not being able to speak the language, not being interested in forums, not haveing time and so on. They all are not included in these numbers.

If the data reflects the real numbers it is by pure chance.

So what ? It's of no consequence, except to employees of the respective companies.

Haveing a higher percentage of representation in this forum does not make one back better than the other.

Regards
SH

P.S.
Wim beat me to it, and he used much less words

Graham Mitchell · « **Reply #102 on:** November 20, 2007, 05:46:21 pm »

This poll amy have turned out quite differently if this were a German language forum...or Swedish, etc

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #103 on:** November 20, 2007, 05:49:54 pm »

Phase One P25 / Mamiya 645 150mm 80mm 45mm 35mm

Leonardo Barreto
ps we are winning ! I knew it

jonstewart · « **Reply #104 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:01:46 pm »

Quote

Let's start a flame war, come one. I could contribute something about Macs and PCs or Nikon and Canon or how about Mercedes and BMW

Seriously.

I do not know whether the data reflects the real numbers of backs in use. The numbers are too low to be of any statistical relevance.

Just image somebody posting on a Phase/Sinar/Leaf or whatever forum about this forum being helpful.

You will get 10 new users all using the same brand. Which will tip the balance without an increase in sold backs.

The same is true about people not using the internet, not knowing about this forum, not being able to speak the language, not being interested in forums, not haveing time and so on. They all are not included in these numbers.

If the data reflects the real numbers it is by pure chance.

So what ? It's of no consequence, except to employees of the respective companies.

Haveing a higher percentage of representation in this forum does not make one back better than the other.

Regards
SH

P.S.
Wim beat me to it, and he used much less words
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the things we have in common (all speak English (I suppose), all use digital backs, all like doing photography, all use internet etc) doesn't actually have any bearing on which back you would choose.

So then, why are the figures not at least indicative, if not statistically valid?

Chris Gahran · « **Reply #105 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:10:53 pm »

Hasselblad

brumbaer · « **Reply #106 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:27:42 pm »

Quote

So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.

I.e. speaking English.

If you are from a German speaking country, Sinar might be higher on the list, if you are Scandinavian, Hassy will be. Any Asian country, I have no guess.
Those people are missing. And they will tip the balance. By how much I can't say.

Also we usually overrate how small the percentage of users is that hang around in forums.

There will be many who use backs i.e. in science, archiving or art who will never enter a forum like this. Those "vertical" markets will have a different distribution.

And I'm quite sure that the distribution of backs sold via internet is different from that of backs sold by dealers. If you have a 10 year relation with your dealer and he claims Leaf or Sinar or Phase is best, you will tend to buy it, especially if you not familiar with the internet.

And if this forum started out as a Leaf forum or a forum where Leaf guys can get help, this forum will have a stronger Leaf population and so on.

Just let's imagine that a company has 5 dealers/employees active on this forum. And all vote for their brand that's all Mamiya votes or 10% of whoever you care.

And there are numbers. as a rule of thumb , statistics start at 1000 samples.

And even with a 1000 votes this would only be representative for English Speaking, Internet savvy users who know about this forum and take part in polls.

So I'm happy to agree that the numbers are an indication, but not more. And I admit that the ranking is what I feel to be right. But my feeling is based on impressions I get by surfing the internet, so this might be wrong as well

I found the comments about switches, planned purchases and multiple back owning more interesting than the numbers, anyway.

Regards
SH

rsmphoto · « **Reply #107 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:48:21 pm »

Quote

That's a ridiculous statement to make. People on this forum have a genuine interest in the issues being covered. Your suggestion is mere sophistry, and I agree with Anthony R that this is probably a fair reflection of distribution by back manufacturer. If you choose not to accept what you can clearly see with your own eyes, then fine.

BTW, I assume you don't own a Phase back? Correct?

(...and yes, I do own one. I am insulted that you are implying I am more likely to vote because I have a certain type of back. Does that mean Leaf owners care less about how they pursue their hobby / business than Phase owners? I think not.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My point was NOT to offend, but merely to suggest that such a broad interpretation of the figures might be reaching, just a bit. Had I known it would offend you, Jon, in such a distinctly personal way and result in being soundly flamed, I would simply not have bothered. I really don't care who is the leading MFDB mfr. They ALL work well and are useful tools. Obviously, it's a very personal choice for some. I also have had enough of this site and will likely "Tucker" myself as well.

hubell · « **Reply #108 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:20:36 pm »

Quote

Phase One P25 / Mamiya 645 150mm 80mm 45mm 35mm
Leonardo Barreto
ps we are winning ! I knew it
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am sure that a very high percentage of MFDBs are owned by working professional photographers who have neither the time nor the interest in responding to such a "poll". Moreover, this is a VERY self-selected group that has self-reinforced the superiority of Phase One products, and it starts right at the top. Anyone who owns a MFDB made by Leaf, Sinar or, God forbid, Hasselblad and participates here on a regular basis is a complete contrarian[pick your description---and enjoy!] going against the conventional wisdom. Trust me, this is not where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out.
The original question was about current sales of MFDBs, not sales made two or three years ago. I think it is completely inaccurate to extrapolate from older sales data because, for Hasselblad, everything changed last October with the introduction of the H3D.

godtfred · « **Reply #109 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:23:57 pm »

Take this poll on the Flexframe Hasselblad users forum

I'm a phase user now, and I still think a/the poll on this forum would not show any sort of accurate statistic on MFDB market share... There simply is too many variables not accounted for.

-axel

BlasR · « **Reply #110 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:24:16 pm »

I'm offended, you didn't mention Spanish or people from Brockton.

Did you know Brockton is the city of champions? Rocky Marciano, Marvin Hagler in me, We from Brockton, so why you mention just Boston, in only Inglesh speaker?

p45+ but I wish to sale it ,,Any one like to get a nice p45+?

BlasR

AndreNapier · « **Reply #111 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:34:02 pm »

Just to validate my opinion I want to remind everyone that I am not Hassenblad user nor to intent to become one in any foreseeable future.
Having said that I do not think that anybody on this forum expected Hassy to represent the biggest number of DB users here or in general market. It is hardly a secret that P1 represents the most digital back users at least in USA. What is missing in this discussion is the major aspect of any business evaluation which is called MOMENTUM.
If for a sake of conversation we assume that the percentage table of the market share posted below was correct 18 months ago or at the announcement of close system by Hassy:
Phase One - 55%
Leaf - 35%
Hassy - 10%
and we conclude tat as of today the market share looks like:
Phase One - 50%
Leaf - 30%
Hassy - 20%
than by all measurable means Hasselblad has the biggest momentum which makes it most dynamic company and the number one contender to the digital back throne.
Investors or even end users look at the momentum aspect much closer that the hard numbers of sale as it it the most predictable indication of company future.
http://andrenapier.com

Anthony R · « **Reply #112 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:58:54 pm »

I really like peach pie.

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #113 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:53:53 pm »

"Trust me, this is not where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out."

This translates in: Owners of Hasselblad have a) no time -- since they are booked solid -- b ) they hang out elsewhere generally.

a) and b ) are contradictory because who would like to hang out at a Hasselblad only forum where other owners have no time to go on line since they are too successful ?

I would rather hand out here where we shoot during the day and check other photographers experiences since we don't assume we know everything.

This, where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out, are exclusive secret forum where they retreat to get away from the mass of Phase, Leaf, Sinar and ...ugh that cheap ZD ... owners?

We are talking about Fujifilm/Hasselblad/Imacon against Phase/Mamiya. Are this Pro Hasselblad owners sure that the master Medium Format in film times and the biggest back maker are going to loose their market share?

Anyway, I think I should check my gear for tomorrows work and not spend so much time in this amateurish forum -- as if someone would purchase a DB and is a non working pro, or a working non pro --

Mort54 · « **Reply #114 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:05:33 pm »

When did this forum turn into DPReview?

TechTalk · « **Reply #115 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:14:13 pm »

If someone wants to discuss “market share”, it would be a good idea to define what you mean by the terminology you’re using. “Market share” and “installed base” are not interchangeable terms in the world of business.

"Market share" is defined as the sales volume of a brand in a defined product category, in unit sales or monetary value, in relation to the overall market for the product category over a defined period of time. The defined period of time varies, but is most often calculated based on the 12-months of a calendar or fiscal year, though quarterly results are sometimes assessed for high-volume product categories.

"Installed base" is the term for examining market penetration over the life of a product in a given product category. This poll is an example of an informal sample of installed base for brands in a product category over an undetermined period of time. There is no attempt being made here to define market, user, region, time period or anything else that would provide some statistical framework.

Basically the only value will be to provide an undefined and limited sample of installed base for various brands of digital backs. Of course it may also have value to those who wish to use the results to reinforce their preconceived ideas (ideas about what, I have no way of knowing). Apparently Leonardo Barreto is also going to win something (though I’m unclear what that might be as well).

We did also learn that Anthony R really likes peach pie and enjoys obtuse wit. But then, so do I.

jimgolden · « **Reply #116 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:20:22 pm »

flex' in effect

thsinar · « **Reply #117 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:25:33 pm »

This poll is certainly an "indication" of what the brand distribution is among the members of this forum, at a certain period of time. This cannot be denied.

Is it an indication of what happens outside of this forum and about market share or presence in the market? I doubt this can be extrapolated since market share is not defined that way at all. All we have here is a list of existing users owing a certain brand at a certain point of time.

It seems that the most important information coming out of this is certainly not who owes and work with which brand, but rather the points having been raised by Stefan.

Best regards,
Thierry

rquindry · « **Reply #118 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:31:50 pm »

Hasselblad CFV

Name: Rich Quindry

TechTalk · « **Reply #119 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:48:10 pm »

Quote

Not to intentionally be a dick, but Steve Hendrix, where are your facts now? Based on the poll thus far it very closely mimics my experience and contradicts your 'facts'. If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.. Obviously 'sensor sales' are moot and I do believe my experience out weighs that of a salesman in Atlanta. Additionally, my experience is not from one market. Before moving to NY I was in Seattle and I have exposure to files and photographers from around the world.

I did not respond to your post before because I agree it doesn't warrant debate. However, you are wrong, as I originally stated.

QUOTE(Anthony R @ Nov 17 2007, 06:16 PM)
I see more Leaf and Phase than anything else. I would say that in the last year or so I have been seeing more Phase than in the past and would guesstimate that it is around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market that I have seen, and I have seen a lot. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not to intentionally be a dick either, but what poll are you looking at that "very closely mimics [your] experience" and "guesstimate" of "around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market"??

Poll

What's the name of your DB?

Author Topic: The name of our DB (Read 76452 times)